Michael Phelps Wins Record 19th Medal

By Jeralyn, Section Media
Posted on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:00:33 PM EST
Tags: Olympics (all tags)

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Michael Phelps has won his 19th Olympic medal setting the Olympic record for the most medals.

NBC continues to confound viewers-- now the LA Times reports it's live feed of Phelps' race wasn't even live -- it broadcast the results on the live feed before the race was over.

With about 50 meters left in the race, the network sent out an app notification with the outcome. I was still watching Phelps swim, supposedly "live," after a notification on my iPad had already told me the race's result.

I haven't even been able to get NBC's live feeds on my laptop even though I'm a Comcast/Xfinity subscriber at the requisite level. I get directed to NBC and never get past the screen that says "who is your cable provider?" This has been happening for four days now.

Why is one network allowed to buy the exclusive rights in the first place? Whatever happened to competition?

[More...]

Even the BBC is forcing popup ads on its Olympic stories, with a box that doesn't close, asking you to pick your favorite Olympic topics. Who doesn't have obnoxious ads or make you scroll halfway down the page before getting to the article you clicked on? So far, the Guardian (and the LA Times.) Even the New York Times is shrinking the stories on the left to make way for a giant obtrusive photo on the right split into four parts, and you can't view any of the photos without clicking though.

This is an open thread for all Olympic events and thoughts.

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Michael Phelps Wins Record 19th Medal | 62 comments (62 topical)

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Hope your post title didn't spoil the (5.00 / 2) (#3)
by Anne on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:45:33 PM EST

day's events for those trying to treat the network coverage as if it were live...

I'm not one of them - I checked in earlier in the day to see what was happening - but it's too bad for those who wanted to be surprised.

I agree that the network coverage is pretty bad; for some reason, I just don't seem to be able to connect as much with this Olympics as I have in earlier years. There's a lot going on in my life - one daughter and her fiance planning a wedding and just today having their offer on a house accepted, and the other daughter and her husband just moving into a new house and having a baby in December.

Am always thrilled for the athletes - the sheer joy of medaling, the pride on the faces of their family and friends - it gets me every time!

no one could miss it (none / 0) (#8)
by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:44:55 PM EST

It was in every headline, I don't think it was a spoiler.


: Easy to Miss... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 09:26:38 AM EST

...just remove the app or turn off the notifications.
That being said, this is so duuuumb. I get home around six and have to go out of my way to make sure I go an hour without getting any news. I was so paranoid of a spoiler, that I muted Costas.
But once the BS was done, last night was spectacular in both the quality of play and for the wins/medals the US pulled. I was so amped at 11, I had a hard time getting to sleep.
I really wish NBC would have a live channel and their delay channel and let us decided which one we want to view. But like the SuperBowl, the game is secondary to their needs so it's subverted to maximize their profits.
The IOC needs to put down some conditions to the network that buys the rights, or treat the games like public information and allow then to be broadcast for free. We, through taxes, pay for these games, yet they are sold for profit.
And after watching for 3 days, I feel like I can tell what's going to happen by Costas' poker face. Once I realized that I started muting him, so I don't know if I am right or it's coincidence. But my point is shouldn't have to worry about that to watch the Olympics, even on delay, would it kill them to have a host that doesn't know, or tape the host before the competition, like they pretend to do.
Still fun to watch even with all the BS.

Sounds like a busy autumn, Anne. (none / 0) (#14)
by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 09:37:44 PM EST

We're helping Younger Daughter with final preparations as she gets herself ready for her freshman year at the University of Hawaii - Hilo over on the Big Island. The fall semester starts on August 20, and we're going over there on August 15 to get her moved into the dorms.

She's simultaneously excited and nervous at the prospect of being on her own for the very first time, while we're steadying ourselves for our own impending prospect -- that of an empty nest, for the first time in over two decades. Big adjustments for everyone, all around, but life is good.

Aloha.


Yeah the live vs. not live (5.00 / 2) (#5)
by fishcamp on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:22:14 PM EST

is a bummer but none of it is really live. I was an independant cameraman for ABC, NBC, and CBS back in the day and they kept changing the stipulations for what was live. It started that 5 seconds delay was live and then went to one hour and then 12 hours was still considered live. I was in Kathmundu while filming the first guys to climb Mt. Everest with live cameras. The guys that made it to the top sent an image down to base camp who in turn sent it to us in Kathmundu whereupon we sent it up to the Indian Ocean satellite. It then got sent down to Tokyo and back up to the Pacific satellite and down to New York and out to Ted Koppel live. That took 12 seconds but was considered live. After that I went fishing...

: great story (none / 0) (#9)
by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:46:41 PM EST

I hope you will tell more.

: Yes, please do (none / 0) (#56)
by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 04:02:39 PM EST

tell more!

I'm sure I missed it, but why does NBC want me (5.00 / 1) (#10)
by ruffian on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:56:41 PM EST

to feel worse that Jordan Wieber didn't make the individual all-around competition than I would if either of the 2 girls that did make it hadn't? She smiled when she entered the gym- how brave. C'mon.

Where's my muter!

I guess because... (5.00 / 1) (#12)
by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 09:33:52 PM EST

she's the World Champion and didn't get to defend her title or something?

Any sport with judges seems to be pretty subjective to me.


: Ok, I guess that makes sense (5.00 / 1) (#15)
by ruffian on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 09:38:55 PM EST

It just seemed so rude to the other girls and their families.

: And she can (5.00 / 1) (#55)
by Zorba on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 02:33:24 PM EST

compete again in the next World Gymnastics Championship in 2013. I don't think she's through yet.
But I agree with Ruffian. The big American networks have a habit of anointing someone in each "popular" sport as the can't-miss champ. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. I try to listen to commentary as little as possible. (Mute, mute, mute!)

Here's why (5.00 / 1) (#19)
by CoralGables on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 12:58:13 AM EST

The top 24 gymnasts from qualifying advance to compete for the all-around championship. Jordyn finished 4th yet she doesn't advance, and twenty one that finished behind her will compete. A new rule is in place this year specifying only two from any one country can advance. If Jordyn came from any country other than the USA, she is in the finals and likely favored for the gold medal.

And that's why you should feel sorry for her.


The new rule was bad (5.00 / 1) (#49)
by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 12:43:37 PM EST

...for Jordyn, no doubt, but the reality is that one of the reasons the US excels in sports like this is money, money, money. The rule creates a more even playing field, increasing the chances for other countries, so I personally am happy with it.

We have the same issue with NCAA sports. Big schools have better teams than small schools, but the smaller schools have an equal chance of getting their #1 team into the playoffs, at least for the first game. If not for such rules, one league could completely dominate the competition and that, IMHO, would spoil any remaining spirit of sportspersonship.


: oops, again (none / 0) (#50)
by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 12:44:19 PM EST

I meant to say *smaller (time) leagues

My argument is with NBC (5.00 / 1) (#54)
by ruffian on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 01:49:06 PM EST

Of course she is disappointed and I am sorry for anyone that does not make their dream come true.

But NBC has a way of presenting these stories that just drains me...they are soooo over the top with the sob story. Are we supposed to feel bad that other girls have a chance to show what they can do, or that someone that was not the favorite is going to win the medal? Sorry, I don't.


But she knew the rules going in (none / 0) (#23)
by nycstray on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 01:54:34 AM EST

as they all did. She finished 3rd on her team. She also didn't finish first at the trails.


Yeah, she knew the rules. She didn't make (5.00 / 1) (#25)
by caseyOR on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 03:18:53 AM EST

a fuss. She cheered her teammates who did make the cut. She handled her disappointment with dignity and class.

She was understandably disappointed. Who can blame her for that?Shoot, I was disappointed for her.

I don't know enough about the gymnastics rules to have an opinion on this "two per team" rule. I can understand the IOC wanting representation for all nations. I can also understand anyone who thinks that gymnasts with the top scores, regardless of nationality, should be the ones to advance.

As to why NBC was so focused on Weiber, well, NBC seems not very aware of the international nature of the Olympics.


: I felt bad for her also (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by nycstray on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 09:17:24 AM EST

but the two competing for the all around are quite good and can win. Iirc, JW only qualified on the floor, and the other 2 also qualified for more individual events. JW handled herself just fine during the team competition and now has a gold medal. NBC could learn something from her ;)
I'm not sure how I feel about the 2 rule either. But all the top teams have to deal with it. And it's kinda the same just getting there. The US prob left a couple of winners behind when they had to chose the team limited to 5. I do know they mentioned the 2 rule (on BBC) when discussing gymnasts from Russia, China etc. We aren't the only team with that much depth.
Learned something interesting yesterday when watching BBC live stream. One of the commentators mentioned at the start of the competition that they did not control what we saw. Apparently, it was being shot by a Japanese crew. I noticed they did cut in gymnasts that were competing at the same time while waiting for scores etc, so you did get to see all of the major competitors, while also seeing all of the teams.

WARNING: Aural Intervention Ahead. (none / 0) (#11)
by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 09:23:19 PM EST

ruffian: "Where's my muter!"

Tune out the babbling boobs on NBC, turn up the volume on Jeff Beck's instrumental cover of Over the Rainbow, and pay homage to a guitar god in his element. It'll both restore your inherent sense of decorum and sanity, and make you feel much better.


Thanks, I needed that! (none / 0) (#13)
by ruffian on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 09:35:18 PM EST

Lovely!


: i second that thanks, Donald. (none / 0) (#16)
by caseyOR on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 09:42:44 PM EST

What a gorgeous rendition of a classic song.

You Miss Understand... (none / 0) (#36)
by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 09:41:43 AM EST

...what they want you to feel, Sorry for Jordan, yes, and mad at the Olympics for the rule as Coral mentioned above. They don't want anyone cut from the American team.

The Americans hate this rule, at least while on top, and while I don't really know much about gymnastics, the rule seems to be right in line with the rules to get into the Olympics. Each country get X amount of players and naturally some better athletes aren't going to make the cut so everyone can participate. Mens Basketball comes to mind, we could easily get all three medals if we placed 3 teams.

And of course, she got a gold which certainly will lesson the call to remove the rule. But it does stink that a substantially less gifted athlete will probably medal in women's gymnastics. It also seriously removes that competition from every having a Phelps, someone who has a lot of medals, like the woman before Phelps who was a gymnast.


If anyone didn't see (5.00 / 2) (#20)
by CoralGables on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 01:04:22 AM EST

McKayla Maroney vault tonight you missed a great one. She is a vault specialist, and with just one attempt being the extent of her contribution to the team gold medal tonight, she turned in what Béla Károlyi referred to as the greatest vault in Olympic history.

Should have been a perfect score. (5.00 / 2) (#28)
by Anne on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 07:07:24 AM EST

I've watched it three or four times, and am just amazed at how good it was.


I've got mixed feelings (none / 0) (#43)
by NYShooter on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 11:56:30 AM EST

About any athlete being awarded a 10. My roommate in college during my Freshman year was New York Champion on the still rings. There were also several other gymnastic members in our house. To say these guys were motivated, and worked hard, would be the understatement of all times. Watching my roomie studying physics by holding the book with his feet while hanging in the "L-Cross" position is a picture I'll take to my grave.

But, my point is that all gymnasts had a universal, personal goal, and that was to beat a certain someone on the circuit who was known to be the best, and the "one to beat." In other words, being better than someone else is how they are rated, and how they rate themselves.

Once someone is scored a "10" what you are telling every athlete in that event, for ever more, is that you can only be as good as, but, never better, than that first ten. I don't know, but being the best ever is the goal every athlete wants for themselves, and taking that possibility away, I think, takes something away from the motivation.

I still remember when Nadia Comaneci got the "10" back in `76, and I sensed a collective groan from the female gymnasts I knew. Not that Nadia wasn't fantastic, but the feeling that the judges were saying, "this is it, this is as good as it gets, no one can ever be better," took something away from the sport.......IMO, only.

Maybe, a solution could be to expand the scoring to hundredths, or thousandths, not to be restricted to only tenths: 9.9= 9.91, 9.92, and so on.

What do you think?


The scoring has changed since the (none / 0) (#47)
by Anne on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 12:24:20 PM EST

days of Nadia!

Here's a link to a Yahoo Sports explanation of how gymnastics is now scored.

The new system encourages greater difficulty for gymnasts who are highly competitive, because there is theoretically no limit to how high the score can go based on difficulty. The difficulty score is open-ended, allowing for extremely difficult routines. A very good score will range in the 15s and 16s.
[snip]
D Panel judges evaluate the difficulty of a routine. Difficulty scoring includes scoring for foundational difficulty, requirements, and connections. The scoring for these elements begins at 0, and points are added with no limit.
[snip]
Execution scoring is judged by six E Panel judges, and begins with a base score of 10 points for each judge. Fractions of points are subtracted for errors. Technique, composition, and artistry are all considered in the score. Very small errors will receive small deductions as low as 0.1, while large errors such as falls incur larger deductions up to a full point. Some other deductions include time requirement, attire, and podium violations. The highest and lowest scores are removed, and the remaining scores are averaged to create the total execution score.
[snip]
D Panel and E Panel scores are added together to obtain the final score. There are three color indicators that appear next to the final scores which represent the severity of deductions. A red colored indicator square means there were 2.0 or more in deductions. A yellow square means there were 1.3 to 1.9 deduction points. Gymnasts shoot for a green square, which means there were 1.2 points or less in deductions.

The days of "10's" are long gone, and scores do come in hundredths of points!


: LoL (none / 0) (#48)
by NYShooter on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 12:42:24 PM EST

Thanks, Anne
I guess you can tell its been a few years since my college days.
What gave me away?

She really stuck that sucker :) (none / 0) (#22)
by nycstray on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 01:50:16 AM EST

I watched the live stream over coffee, and was glad I did. That was really something.


I don't know (none / 0) (#24)
by CoralGables on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 02:04:45 AM EST

how fast NBC will yank this from youtube, but I can watch this all night

McKayla Maroney


Yep, it's gone... (none / 0) (#27)
by fishcamp on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 07:04:51 AM EST

: it's back at CoralGables link below (none / 0) (#45)
by DFLer on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 12:02:43 PM EST

message #38

Dang, I go to bed (none / 0) (#32)
by nycstray on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 09:20:20 AM EST

and it gets censored by NBC. I really hate when they do that . . .


That vault (none / 0) (#34)
by indy in sc on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 09:30:29 AM EST

was other-worldly. When I saw her vault from the qualifying round--it was so high that I didn't think it could be improved upon (other than the landing, where she had a step). The vault on the night for the medal was so well executed and so perfectly landed! I have no idea where they found the deductions (not that I'm a gymnastics expert). She should be able to just submit video of that vault for the event final and not have to attempt it again!

NBC should begin its prime time coverage every night for the rest of the Olympics with a replay of that vault! :)


What's CraZy is the Footage... (none / 0) (#37)
by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 09:51:31 AM EST

...of the same event in past Olympics, I don't want to say it was nothing, but compared to the modern vault, the old one looks almost easy.

It's mind boggling when I think about me trying to do one somersault off a diving board. It can be done, but usually involves a large splash, some areas of burning skin, and loads of laughs.

I don't understand how a mind and body can be that precise, but it is a joy to watch.


How far have they come? (none / 0) (#38)
by CoralGables on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 10:04:46 AM EST

For comparison purposes

Nadia Comaneci 1976 Olympics

McKayla Maroney 2012 Olympics

Again expect the latter to be pulled as soon as NBC wakes up this morning.

I hate to say this about Nadia, but her vaults today can probably be seen in a hundred gymnastics studio across the country at 2:00 in the afternoon on a Tuesday when the 12 year olds show up for practice.


Official HD Video (none / 0) (#42)
by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 11:28:22 AM EST

It has a commercial, but has the original commentary. You can switch the quality in the right hand bottom corner.

MARONEY VAULT

This is NBC's video highlights page. The commercials are irritating, but the clips are awesome, well edited IMO.


: Holy moly (none / 0) (#44)
by sj on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 11:56:35 AM EST

That's amazingly beautiful. Thank you for posting the link.

Different apparatus: (none / 0) (#51)
by the capstan on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 01:02:39 PM EST

should not be compared. Big vault later was a Tsukahara, performed by guy of that name in the 1976 Olympics. My daughter, far from Olympic level, was pretty good at it fairly soon after that.

The old vault apparatus I recall was a 'horse' without the pommels.


There was a time.... (none / 0) (#61)
by desertswine on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 10:33:47 PM EST

when a horse was really something else.


: That's what (none / 0) (#63)
by the capstan on Thu Aug 02, 2012 at 09:33:01 AM EST

Nadia (and my daughter) was using, only turned the other way.

Thanks! (none / 0) (#57)
by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 04:17:18 PM EST

And thanks to Scott for the links. Really incredible to watch.


Whatever happened to competition? (5.00 / 1) (#21)
by unitron on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 01:19:25 AM EST

"Why is one network allowed to buy the exclusive rights in the first place? Whatever happened to competition?"

There was a competition.

A competition to see who would pay the most for broadcast rights.

I assume NBC won by outbidding everybody else who was interested.

Perhaps in addition to the money there was also some consideration to how good a job they would do, and therefore would any damage be done or not to the Olympics' reputation, but I'm sure the money was a big part of the equation.

Now if only there had been a clause in the '84 LA contract that specifically said that Jim McKay had to be bound and gagged the entire time those 50 grand pianos were playing Gershwin.

Although I would have settled for Jennings reaching over and quickly strangling him.

London Mayor Boris Johnson... (5.00 / 1) (#62)
by ScottW714 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 at 08:52:51 AM EST

...got stranded on a zip line yesterday. Well spectators being spectators commenced to taking pictures.

(Dramatic Movie Voice)
Some of them were photoshopped.

Phelps has 15 gold... (none / 0) (#1)
by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:14:46 PM EST

2 silver and two bronze for the 19 total. He could end up with 22 if he medals in his final 3 events.

: thanks, I fixed it (5.00 / 1) (#6)
by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:43:50 PM EST

I've been watching the BBC stream (none / 0) (#2)
by nycstray on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 07:21:49 PM EST

but when they went to their required news, I had to switch to NBC. Man, was that painful! The ads popping into the stream and the poor streaming quality, ugh. I can't figure out why the BBC streams so smoothly (and from what I understand, it's coming over yet another independent server from the BBC's) and NBC's hangs up etc. I'm wondering if it's from the ads that pop in etc?

I do believe I was watching live swimming. I was back on the BBC stream at that point. If I wasn't, they sure didn't let any spoilers out :)

: All the websites for the NBC "family" (none / 0) (#17)
by sj on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 10:49:11 PM EST

are bad. I don't even try to go to MSNBC at work because the filters cause it to practically hang. I don't know if they have dependencies on all their widgets (and there are a lot of them, apparently) or what, but some of them are blocked and the page just takes forever to load.

I'm resolved to focus on the positive (none / 0) (#4)
by ruffian on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:19:09 PM EST

in my Olympics viewing tonight. Already saw some results on my cubemate's computer at work, so suspense for me. Just enjoying some gymnastics.

So much for my mellow....just saw a Mitt Romney, savior of the Olympics, ad that even managed to work in 9/11.

I give up.

And just as everything else in his life, ... (5.00 / 3) (#7)
by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 08:44:45 PM EST

... the Salt Lake Olympic records have either been sealed or destroyed, so you'll simply have to take Mitt Romney at his word that he's the savior of the Winter Games unless, of course, you happen to possess one of those nifty, made-in-China lapel pins bearing his likeness -- that either commemorate the 2002 Salt Lake City Winter Olympiad or Mitt's former career in Las Vegas as an Elvis impersonator, I can't figure out which one.

The more I learn about this guy, the more he gives me the creeps.


: Mostly True (none / 0) (#35)
by Slado on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 09:32:49 AM EST

As with all politicians he turns a good story into a great one.
PolitiFact

Assuage yourself with a glance at the cover of (none / 0) (#29)
by DFLer on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 08:04:10 AM EST

the new Newsweek. (article is just "okay" IMO but worth a bathroom read)


I was watching the tail end of nbc's (none / 0) (#18)
by desertswine on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 12:14:14 AM EST

olympics show and they were telling what to expect for tomorrow and I could've sworn the music they were playing waa the theme for "The Adventures of Briscoe County Jr," the old Bruce Campbell sci-fi western. Weird.

: Absolutely right. (none / 0) (#30)
by DFLer on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 08:05:57 AM EST

They've been using that theme throughout.
It's a great piece.

Bravo channel is quite good (none / 0) (#39)
by fishcamp on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 10:33:32 AM EST

with their tennis coverage. More cameras would be good like during Wimbledon 2 weeks ago. It's all the same players except they don't get paid $$$ but do win gold, silver, and bronze. The announcer Pat O'Brian is also good but looks like the incredible shrinking man. I'm rooting for Roger.

This is Hilarious (none / 0) (#40)
by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 11:19:52 AM EST

China vs South Korea, both teams trying to lose badminton to get better placement in the tournament.

These four women and four others were later disqualified for this non-sense.

Seem like maybe the dynamic needs to be fixed. Although this case is clear, it would be pretty hard to determine if a team is "not using one's best efforts to win a match". They should remove the incentive to throw a match, not boot players use those rules to offer the best chance at winning medals.

I thought that was pretty funny also (none / 0) (#41)
by nycstray on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 11:26:24 AM EST

Who knew there could be such controversy in badminton?! :D


It does open many sports (none / 0) (#46)
by NYShooter on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 12:12:31 PM EST

To a new scrutiny: Baseball....sacrifice bunt, bases on balls. Football, quarterback knee down, running out the clock. In basketball, "giving a foul" is standard procedure. Some team sports, Nascar, horse racing comes to mind, where certain members sacrifice themselves for other members to get ahead. Even chess: sacrificing a piece early on for a strategic advantage later on. I wonder if Ali's "rope-a-dope" would even be allowed?

p.s. I do agree with your suggestion as to how to fix this contradictory rule.


: It's the Olympics... (none / 0) (#52)
by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 01:03:12 PM EST

...but same as you mentioned, do qualifying runs where winning is not the goal be held to the same standard. Clearly some of the participants are saving the 'heat' for the medal round.
There are many reasons not to give it your all, but seems like nearly all the events have figured out how to keep people from purposely losing.

: I dunno NYS, re baseball (none / 0) (#60)
by DFLer on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 09:48:46 PM EST

sacrifice bunt is a strategy to win..by advancing a runner to scoring postion
base on balls..perhaps you mean intentional walk, also a strategy to win..if 1st is open and it sets up a double play, thereby minimizing damage.
Neither of these have anything to do with "throwing a game"

I read an article that on some big Chinese blog (none / 0) (#53)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 01:48:07 PM EST

a lot of the Chinese are embarrassed by the lack of honesty in their countrymen's play, while others were proud of their "cunning."

I think the concept of "cunning" has a different place in Chinese culture than it does in the West...

I Wonder if the Saints.... (none / 0) (#58)
by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 04:22:35 PM EST

...consider bounties cunning ? But it's not rare to hear a good ole American football fan cheering for an injury.


: Machievelli in the West (none / 0) (#59)
by jondee on Wed Aug 01, 2012 at 04:44:26 PM EST

had the jump on Mao by a few hundred years.