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Riots in Baltimore After Freddie Gray Funeral

By Jeralyn, Section Social Justice
Posted on Mon Apr 27, 2015 at 06:24:58 PM EST
Tags: Freddie Gray (all tags)
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Baltimore was in chaos today when riots erupted after the funeral of Freddie Gray, a young African American who died in police custody.

Gray's family was shocked by the violence... they hoped to organize a peace march later in the week, said family attorney Billy Murphy. He said they did not know the riot was going to happen and urged calm.

"They don't want this movement nationally to be marred by violence," he said. "It makes no sense."

Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan declared a state of emergency in Baltimore and activated the National Guard.

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    Riots in Baltimore After Freddie Gray Funeral | 200 comments (200 topical)
    I don't want to minimize what's (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Anne on Mon Apr 27, 2015 at 07:27:45 PM EST
    happening, but the reality is that the looting and property destruction is so far happening only in isolated areas of the city; the problem is that it's a large, spread-out city, and containing it is no small task.

    Right now, religious leaders are gathering in the parking lot of the New Shiloh Baptist Church, which is where Freddie Gray's funeral was held, planning a march through the worst areas, asking for an end to the violence and destruction.

    One thing should be made clear: this has nothing to do with Freddie Gray; these are not people protesting what happened to him.  Many of those involved were school kids - you could see them in their school uniforms and wearing backpacks.

    As it happened, I was off today, babysitting for my six-month old grandson, but our offices - right across from the National Aquarium - closed at 2:30, after law enforcement went building-by-building alerting management that they had received credible threats that busloads of young people were headed to the Inner Harbor to cause trouble.  It does not appear that this happened, but there was an abundance of caution being exercised in order to secure people's safety.

    I have no idea whether our offices will open tomorrow - I guess it will depend on how things go for the rest of the evening.

    Honestly, this is just heartbreaking.  I have no idea why people would loot and burn stores that serve the communities in which they live; the hardship their actions impose on the law-abiding people in these areas is unconscionable.  

    But beyond that, it's things like this that set progress back, that allow racism to flourish.

    State of Emergency, curfew in place for a week (10 pm to 5 am).

    Really just a terrible, terrible situation.

    Thank you for the update, Anne, ... (none / 0) (#2)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 27, 2015 at 09:56:11 PM EST
    ... and a local perspective on what's occurring in Baltimore. I wish that the knuckleheads responsible for this carnage in their communities could be made to understand how counterproductive their actions really are. Rather than focus public attention of the fate of Freddie Gray, they're providing an easy excuse for many in the so-called "law and order" crowd to sidestep the real issue of police brutality and misconduct, and instead demonize the city's minority residents as somehow unfit for self-governance.

    I hope that the situation in your city improves soon.

    Parent

    The Three Stooges are "knuckleheads;" (none / 0) (#3)
    by Anne on Mon Apr 27, 2015 at 10:16:42 PM EST
    the people responsible for looting, burning, destroying property and injuring people aren't anywhere near that benign.

    Typically, my route home takes me up Gay Street, right past City Hall and only a block from police headquarters; that route is likely not going to be available to me, as it's been cordoned off and intersections that run through that area have been closed.  I'm not sure alternate routes will take me through areas I'd be particularly comfortable moving through.

    Here's the thing: the pop-up nature of these violent situations is what's so unnerving. How can people be sure that something won't erupt seemingly out of nowhere?

    We haven't heard the outcome of a meeting at the church between religious and community leaders, and members of three gangs: Black Guerilla Family, the Bloods and the Crips.  The sense was that an effort was being made to get the cooperation of the gangs to help stem the violence - but who knows?  The meeting was closed to the public.

    Even after the sporadic violence of Saturday night, downtown, it had felt like maybe Baltimore was going to avoid the kind of thing that happened in Ferguson; protests had been peaceful, law enforcement had gone out of its way to make sure the protests could be carried out, city leadership had clearly learned something from Ferguson and had been open and transparent - as much as they could.  Sunday was quiet.  Today was the funeral. And then it all unraveled, and in a very violent way.

    It really is just heartbreaking.

    Parent

    Thanks for your reporting -- (2.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:35:12 AM EST
    We haven't heard the outcome of a meeting at the church between religious and community leaders, and members of three gangs: Black Guerilla Family, the Bloods and the Crips.  The sense was that an effort was being made to get the cooperation of the gangs to help stem the violence - but who knows?  The meeting was closed to the public.

    Are we to understand that the mayor of Baltimore turned to the criminal elements in Baltimore for help stemming the viloence before she turned to the Governor of Maryland???

    What's wrong with this picture???

    Parent

    No, that is not what happened. (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:50:08 AM EST
    The religious community and community leaders reached out to the gangs, not the mayor.  They had a meeting at the church where Freddie Gray's funeral was held, and from what I understand, it was a very good meeting.

    The community wants an end to the violence, wants better for its residents, and I think the gangs have been able to communicate from the point of view of the people who live in those communities.  I had a sense that there was less talking "at" each other and more with each other.

    Parent

    "What wrong with this picture"? (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:36:14 PM EST
    I guess when you hold nothing but hammers in your hands, the entire world is your nail. Perhaps if you stopped looking at the picture's reflection in the funhouse mirror that's the right-wing Wurlitzer, it might become clearer to you.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Anne, is there any credence ... (none / 0) (#127)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 02:23:43 PM EST
    ... to today's story in The Daily Beast that Maryland Nat'l Guard troops were deployed exclusively to the protection of Baltimore's white neighborhoods?

    "'They got the damn National Guard down there in Inner Harbor, defending white Baltimore,' one man said, going hoarse from frustration and anger that couldn't be controlled anymore. There was quite a bit of political wrangling over the deployment of the Guard and their position in Inner Harbor may have been a tactical one, waiting in reserve in case the situation got out of hand elsewhere. It wasn't until well after the clashes with police that the Guard showed up at North and Penn, but by then it was too late."

    Honestly, I have no idea where Sandtown is located relative to the city's Inner Harbor district. Is the Beast's criticism just regarding the Guard's deployment -- or is this a case in which the media is implying an otherwise unwarranted controversy?

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I had not heard this, Donald; (none / 0) (#129)
    by Anne on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 02:44:58 PM EST
    I also wasn't downtown yesterday, but some of my coworkers said when they came in, Pratt Street - which fronts the Inner Harbor - had quite a lot of National Guard lining it.

    You have to remember that it's probably the closest location to City Hall and police headquarters where a lot of vehicles could be parked without causing more traffic problems.  I did see one vehicle and several Guard outside the entrance to police hq this morning on my way in, but that whole area is blockaded off.

    Looking out the window today, I am not seeing any Guard - there are some state police vehicles not far from the aquarium, but that's about it.

    For what it's worth, the Inner Harbor isn't a neighborhood, but it is the heart of the retail, banking, tourist area.

    About 50 police cars went flying down Pratt Street earlier today, but never heard why or where they were going.  I had a client come over from Hopkins Pediatric Cardiology around 2:00 - and that is a route that goes through some pretty sketchy areas - and he reported seeing nothing.

    Hoping it all holds as we wait for the report on Freddie Gray's death, which was supposed to come out on Friday...

    Parent

    Thank you for the update. (none / 0) (#131)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 03:50:57 PM EST
    I think The Daily Beast and other sources are overcompensating for their earlier neglect of this story. Since the Inner Harbor is a central locale in Baltimore, then it makes sense from a logistical standpoint to initially deploy the Guard troops there.

    Parent
    Disagree (none / 0) (#134)
    by sj on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 04:02:13 PM EST
    North Avenue is a major thoroughfare. Pratt is a business and entertainment center.

    Parent
    Well, like I said, ... (none / 0) (#139)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 06:22:12 PM EST
    ... I'm quite unfamiliar with the city of Baltimore, and have to rely on people who know the turf, because I wouldn't know my Pratt from my North. It seems painfully obvious that the media likewise doesn't really know Baltimore, so I'm taking everything I hear there with a grain of salt. I must defer to your (and Anne's) judgment.

    Parent
    I'm not Anne (none / 0) (#132)
    by sj on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 03:58:30 PM EST
    but for three years I lived very close to North Ave and Pennsylvania. I traveled North and Madison/Eutaw nearly daily. I was located north of North (as is Shilo Baptist Church). According to Google, Sandtown is south of North. I didn't know the neighborhood had a name -- although it doesn't surprise me --  but I can tell you that the area is quite rough.

    It is about 3 miles from the Inner Harbor in distance, but many thousands of dollars annually in per capita income.

    If I still lived there I would be outraged, too.

    Parent

    I appreciate your comment. (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 06:28:04 PM EST
    In trying to understand what's happening in Baltimore, I'm much more comfortable with the perspectives of people such as you and Anne who actually know the area and its residents, than with opinions of those persons who profess to see all and know all, yet really offer nothing but one size fits all.

    Parent
    "We can't just leave this to the police" (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:56:04 AM EST
    I'm watching the president talk about this live.  I agree with every word I have heard.  
    I'm quite proud of him right now.

    This just happened (none / 0) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 12:05:59 PM EST
    in a scheduled press availability.  It will be up soon.  Please watch the whole thing.  Surfing a bit and the tiny clip CNN and MSNBC is playing is him saying 'when people break into stores it's not protesting it's stealing'

    Of course they are omitting the biggest "but" in the history of "butts".

    Please see the whole statement.

    Parent

    Video (none / 0) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 03:37:52 PM EST
    point # 5 - and I've got 6 cause this is important

    You should watch if you haven't seen it.

    Parent

    Nickel Rides (4.25 / 4) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 08:37:28 AM EST
    Freddie Gray's Death Reveals A Dark History Of "Nickel Rides" And Police Van Torture

    I am not defending what the kids in Baltimore did.  I will say it's going to keep happening until the brutality stops.  I think this stuff is going to increase,  they are saying the protesters were well organized.  That the police were "outflanked"

    People have had enough.  It's what happens eventually.

    There were rumors of gangs organizing before this.  I have no idea if that played a factor but why would anyone be surprised if it did.  If I was in their place my goal might be to cause so much destruction that the next time some sadist group of cops consider handcuffing and shackling a person with the intent of throwing them in the back of a van to torture them, which aparrently has a history in Baltimore, they just might stop and think, "hummmm, will this cause my city to burn?"

    I posted a comment in the last open  about an HBO documentary about a serial killer in South Central LA.  I will say again, if you would really like to know why this might be happening, watch it.
    I lived in LA for 14 years.  While this was happening and I was stunned.  I was shocked.  I was amazed.  I thought I had an idea what life in those neighborhoods was like.  I really did not.

    What's happening is not just about Freddie Gray.  Any more than Ferguson was only about Michael Brown.  It's about decades of police brutality and exploitation.  And it has to stop. Until it does there will be more Baltimores.

    It's about more than just the police (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by CST on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:35:12 AM EST
    The police are just the enforcement arm of a larger problem.

    This guy nails it, IMO:

    "That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night's property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American's civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state."

    Parent

    And it might be (none / 0) (#30)
    by Reconstructionist on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 10:05:30 AM EST
      worth acknowledging that many here are insisting that people who do  not wish  simply to choose between competing factions of that American political elite, which while having other disagreements has been quite able to forge cooperation on policies that help ship those jobs away and disadvantage the poor,  are  somehow the problem for progressives.

      Strange days indeed.

    Parent

    These were not protesters, Howdy. (none / 0) (#16)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 08:57:51 AM EST
    They just weren't.  This wasn't a demonstration, or a march; there was no message meant to further the cause of holding police accountable for the brutality they are inflicting.

    This was just violence.

    And it wasn't a matter of being organized, it was a matter of this being a geographically large city.  If you could have watched the non-stop coverage, as I did yesterday, you would have seen that as the cops would form barriers and move these people away from the area, they would simply scatter and find other places to go.

    "Protesters" didn't drive to the mall, go in and come out with armloads of merchandise, and drive away.  Protesters don't seek to harm the businesses and lives of people who live and work in the community.  Who does that help?  More important, who does that really hurt?

    This isn't how one gets over on society, it is how one winds up in jail.  This has helped no one and hurt many who have worked hard to make lives, to live right and work hard to bring businesses like CVS into the community to provide jobs and opportunity.

    Parent

    Well (4.57 / 7) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:04:01 AM EST
    i would disagree.  I think the message was pretty clear.  People have been protesting for "decades".  What has it got them?
    As I said, I am not endorsing the tactics.  I am simply saying until the police brutality stops, get used to it.   In fact I would predict escalation.
    The most dangerous person in the world is not a cop decked out in the latest riot gear.  It's a kid with nothing to lose.

    Parent
    It is very foolish (3.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Jack203 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 07:25:41 PM EST
    to think escalation of violence is the answer.

    Parent
    Are you talking about cops (5.00 / 3) (#147)
    by Palli on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 08:21:12 PM EST
    who just put live ammo in their rifles this afternoon?

    Parent
    People grow up in and around these (none / 0) (#62)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:22:05 PM EST
    neighborhoods that are owned in-effect by shysters who often live hundreds of miles away and whose front men do the bare minimum required to keep the checks rolling in..

    Burning at least gets rid of the rats and bedbugs..

    And yes, these people have also been told by the yuppie American investor class that if they can't be cheap industrial fodder like the people in Bangledesh and Mexico, they can all go hang..

    So the end result is that our poor middle class hearts get "broken" because theirs have been broken.

    Parent

    Idiots throwing rocks and bottles at firefighters (2.00 / 1) (#5)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 02:00:59 AM EST
    The cops aren't really doing much. The mayor appears to be in way over her head.  What exactly is the strategy?

    The strategy?? (1.00 / 1) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:50:30 AM EST
    I think it was, on Sunday, to act like it wasn't a big deal, ignore as best possible and hope it went away after the funeral, especially since the family was pleading for peace.

    To me, the real question is why the mayor and her advisers thought that to be the case.

    They appear to have completely ignored the lessons of Ferguson.

    Parent

    jim, you don't - as usual - have a clue what (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:53:12 AM EST
    you are talking about.  Not a clue.

    And this is a perfect example of why it is that no one cares what you think.

    Parent

    The results speak (1.33 / 3) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:17:04 AM EST
    for themselves. This is from the Sunday thread in which you wrote:

    The mayor and the police did keep it safe for thousands of people. Looting was minor, as was property damage: I've seen worse when college kids riot after a big game - not that any of it's right, but you're making this out to be like the city was burning last night - and that's not the case.  Not even close.

    And then:

    This was not major, full-scale rioting and unrest; it was never out of control.  

    Again, you don't know what you are talking about, what the mayor and police commissioner have and are doing, so you really should just STFU.

    I really can't get over the idiocy and ignorance of your comment.

    What it was was a prelude. Had it been nipped in the bud by immediate and decisive actions rather than trying to let it go just go away was disastrous.  

    The fatal flaw in the Mayor's strategy is that she saw the actions as "protests" against the police that could be contained and would die down as people vented their anger.

    Of course it wasn't. She failed to see that there was a large group of thugs who would take advantage of what they saw as her weakness and riot and destroy. And even you agree that what happened yesterday, and is still happening, is not about anything the police did.

    Anne, as I have explained before before, I don't care what you think. It is impossible to communicate with someone, as you do, who like to toss in STFU fighting words.

    Parent

    Don't act like you care (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by CST on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:25:17 AM EST
    about people in Baltimore.

    Parent
    I care no more or less than I care for people (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 12:06:18 PM EST
    everywhere.

    Baltimore falls into that category somewhere.

    I do have sympathy for the business owners who have had their life's work destroyed by thugs. I do have sympathy for the employees who have lost their jobs because of the actions of these thugs.

    And I have concern that you do not seem to understand that these rioters are not protesters. I trust your inability to not recognize the danger to society that the rioters bring.

    But most of all I have sympathy for the young people who are being taught a terribly wrong lesson that will, sooner or later, result in bad things happening to them.

    Parent

    I believe this (4.50 / 2) (#84)
    by sj on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 03:30:03 PM EST
    I care no more or less than I care for people (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:06:18 AM MDT  

    everywhere.

    "Less" being the operative word. Your attempts at assuming a mantle of compassion clearly show the humbug.

    Parent
    If you fail to understand (2.00 / 1) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 05:42:26 PM EST
    that "no more or no less" means equal then it is your problem, not mine.

    Parent
    Failure to understand seems (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 05:52:43 PM EST
    to be what you say when your cr*p doesn't convince anyone around here.

    Parent
    Please understand (none / 0) (#107)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 06:52:15 AM EST
    I am not interested in convincing anyone. I am interested in pointing out the truth.

    Sorry if you disagree.

    Parent

    You won't know the truth (none / 0) (#111)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 07:34:21 AM EST
    if it hit you on your big toe.

    Parent
    Of course (none / 0) (#47)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 12:07:12 PM EST
    you do.

    Parent
    Howdy you have (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 12:12:25 PM EST
    posted comments in support of the rioters.

    That speaks for itself.

    Parent

    There was a riot in your heart (3.00 / 2) (#54)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 12:58:27 PM EST
    Jim and the thugs obviously carried the day.

    Parent
    I should add (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:52:02 PM EST
    if you had one.

    Parent
    That Comment Deserves a '10' (none / 0) (#44)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:58:20 AM EST


    Parent
    I think elected officials are afraid of using (none / 0) (#43)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:57:38 AM EST
    too much force and then being criticized for it.  The media was hard on Ferguson police for being too strong, or aggressive or "over militarized" or some other nonsense when they actually got it right early on.  

    Now, other cities think it's best to error on side of being less prepared.  

    Parent

    Yes, I think the mayor was trying (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 12:09:29 PM EST
    to protect herself and position herself for future elections.

    As for Ferguson the Mayor never got it right. He should have immediately started screaming for the National Guard.

    Parent

    If she's trying to (none / 0) (#50)
    by CST on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 12:28:28 PM EST
    position herself for future elections - in a way that means she's probably doing her job.  Working for the people of Baltimore, rather than auditioning for a talking head gig at Fox News.

    Parent
    In a way?? (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:02:19 PM EST
    So you propose that whatever she does is correct??

    Really?

    Parent

    I konw it doesn't jibe (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:04:47 PM EST
    with your worldview, but maybe just maybe she's trying to do the right thing by the people of the city and the people of the nation.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by CST on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:12:28 PM EST
    I'm proposing that whatever she does should be for the people of Baltimore, not for the people who watch Fox News.

    Parent
    Then we agree (1.00 / 1) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:31:40 PM EST
    "should be."

    But that wasn't the discussion.

    The question is, was it good for the people of Baltimore.

    Parent

    Everything is a self-serving (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 12:55:48 PM EST
    "politically motivated" maneuver to you guys..

    Nobody, certainly no liberal,  EVER does anything just because it's the right, decent, compassionate, intelligent thing to do..

    Of course all that way of interpreting events does is speak volumes about the worldview of conservatives.

    Can't wait to hear (not) your interpretation of Obama's remarks today..  

    Parent

    You guys?? (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:11:08 PM EST
    And who might you guys be??

    My point was that her strategy was to do nothing and hope that everything turned out right.

    It obviously failed.

    And her motivation could have been as black as midnight or as pure as the driven snow.

    Now, let's assume her motives were pure.

    Yet she did what she did, which was to fatally delay deployment of sufficient forces nip the riot  in the bud on Sunday. The rioters, which seem to have been to a large degree kids, had all day to mull the lack of action in their minds and assume, correctly, that their actions would not be met with force.

    The results speak.

    Parent

    If Only Jim... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:24:47 PM EST
    ...was mayor of Baltimore, he would prevented the whole thing.

    So call out the dogs on kids, even before they did anything, how could that possibly be problematic.

    At least you are consistent in your view of kids, I guess you get a 'attaboy' for only demanding force be used against these kids and not your go to move regarding enemy kids.

    Parent

    The police officers ducking (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:40:45 PM EST
    bricks and bottles would have a different view of who are "kids." Especially the 24 injured.

    Never the less, I just heard a police spokesman say that of those arrested 34 were kids and 201 were adults.

    Would nipping the rioters in the bud on Sunday have stopped Monday??

    Yes, I think it would have.

    Parent

    There was no rioting on Sunday, jim. (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 02:00:12 PM EST
    Are you confused again?  Did the folks at Fox tell you a different truth?

    Sunday was a gorgeous, peaceful day; there was no unrest.

    Freddie's family had pleaded with the public for Monday to be a day of calm and peace as they buried their loved one.  There was no trouble at the funeral, either in the visitation hour beforehand, at the funeral itself, or afterward.

    What happened on Monday was the result of kids circulating a plan to meet at the mall for a "The Purge"-like event.  Law enforcement knew about the plan, the city superintendent of schools was advised, the schools themselves were made aware.  Police showed up in the area in anticipation of possible trouble.  Should they not have? Or is your problem that they didn't bring the riot vehicles and equipment?

    I have to tell you that as soon as I saw you had showed up in this thread, all I could think was, "Oh, swell...another topic jim knows nothing about where he will clog up the comments with his witless mutterings."

    Parent

    Fox? No. (1.00 / 1) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 02:16:35 PM EST
    It was the Baltimore Sun.

    Other businesses, including several 7-Eleven stores and a McDonald's just down the street, weren't so lucky.

    And yesterday you seemed remarkably uninformed.

    What I am is someone who knows nothing bad happened all day

    Been watching MSNBC again?

    ;-)

    Parent

    You Were the One... (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 02:32:07 PM EST
    ...who said kids:
    The rioters, which seem to have been to a large degree kids, had all day to mull the lack of action in their minds and assume, correctly, that their actions would not be met with force.

    But 10 mins later it's adults.  Just another case of Jim and Fox News not knowing what the F they speak of.

    So if I am understanding you correctly, you wanted the mayor to do what exactly, keep people from mulling around by using riot gear because they might riot ?  

    I forget, tell us again how much you love the Constitution.

    And Anne nailed it, just another thread that you clog up while adding absolutely nothing of value.  Doesn't it get old being the most despised person at Talk Left ?

    Parent

    There was a significant police presence (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:51:39 PM EST
    all day Sunday, with the protesters, as they gathered and marched through various areas of the city that were connected to Freddie Gray; there had been no violence in the days following Freddie Gray's death, and throughout the week; there was more than one march and more than one gathering that took place.

    So, in my estimation, you don't know enough about what went down here, and have chosen to regurgitate whatever swill your right-wing media sources are dishing up for you, and  are acting as if you've got inside information and are cluing us in to what "really" happened.

    The idea that you know what other people think is laughable.  You don't even know what other people think even when spell it out for you.

    Parent

    So we have your estimation (2.00 / 2) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 02:08:03 PM EST
    of what I know.

    Let me point out to you the facts that I do know.

    1. The violent acts of Sunday weren't stopped.

    2. On Monday the police withdrew and allowed the rioters to act without opposing them.

    3. The results were reported by all the media outlets.

    The police's action had to be at the direction of the Mayor.

    If she thought that was the right to do then I can only say that the road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

    Parent

    Now, you're just trolling, (5.00 / 4) (#80)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 02:39:33 PM EST
    1. There was no violence on Sunday - at least not associated with the Freddie Gray protests.  Hate to break it to you bud, but there is other crime taking place - you know, the garden-variety kind that happens every day, everywhere.

    2.  The police did not withdraw and allow the rioters to act.  It may not have occurred to you jim, or perhaps you didn't notice, that the trouble occurred in a relatively residential area, and there's an obligation to protect those people, and not just start a war on the streets.

    3.  Why do I get the feeling that if the mayor were white and a Republican, you wouldn't be making the arguments that somehow, this is all her fault.  I also get the feeling that you don't know much about how these things work, in general.  

    4.  You don't know jack.

    Let me say this: whatever this was that started via social media with young people may not have been specifically related to Freddie Gray, but it cannot be said that it didn't have something to do with these young people feeling like they have no future in Baltimore.  That what's the point of going to school if there are no jobs for you when you graduate, no opportunities for college?  That the police only see you as a criminal, and not as a human being?  

    I'm not excusing it - but on some level I understand it.  I listened to the president today, and as he spoke, quite eloquently, I couldn't help but want to ask him how, for example, the TPP is going to bring more jobs to Baltimore.  

    I also watched a woman who works at a store in the mall, telling the reporter that her job there is how she takes care of her family - and now, with the store looted and in a shambles, she has no job to go to now.  I watched another woman talking to a reporter, saying that she grew up in subsidized housing, that she'd watched people work hard to make something better there and in the area around where all this happened yesterday, and she was heartbroken at the fear that all of this was going to set things back.  

    As simple as you always try to make things, jim, this is not a simple problem.  And the other truth here, jim, is that for all your sympathy and crocodile tears, you and I both know that you will defend and vote for Republicans who don't want to do anything to help this problem.

    There's a reason people - not just me - have a tendency to reach the point where they tell you to shut your piehole, and that reason is fully on display here today.  

    Parent

    Anne, I shall refrain from (1.50 / 2) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 05:59:20 PM EST
    swapping insults with you, although you miss no opportunity to do so. But I will ask this. Do you tell people in the physical world to STFU.

    If so you must live a very interesting life. But I do not believe that you would risk doing so outside the Internet.

    Now, from the bottom up.

    I have not said the problem was simple. As for who I will vote for it is simple. On a national level I will vote for the person I think will defend the country best because if we lose the country nothing else matters.

    I have commented that I have sympathy for the owners and employees who have lost all because of the thugs.

    1. No matter why it started the mayor should have been able to control it. Hand wringing doesn't put food on the table.

    2. You can have any feeling you want. I expect that you feel like that because I am a strong defender of national defense and my support of the military over powers, in your mind, my stated support for gay rights, minority rights, a woman's right to choose, drug law reform and a single payer health care plan based on Medicare as a model.

    3. The police withdrawing was clearly shown on both CNN and Fox.

    4. There was violence on Sunday. And there was an expectation of more because as you pointed out, transportation options were closed and intersections shut down.


    Parent
    So, ultimately (none / 0) (#78)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 02:31:25 PM EST
    what you're saying is we need more broken spines, not less of them. Then they'll listen..

    Then the people will disperse-behave-act right-respect the police etc

    Police reliance strictly on brute force, while angry old men cheer them on, has gotten us to the that point Baltimore is at now.

    Of course, violence and obedience are pretty much your solutions to all problems foreign and domestic.

    Parent

    No, I didn't say or imply that (2.00 / 1) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 07:05:51 AM EST
    What I pointed out was that the lack of action by the mayor greatly aggravated the problem.

    Before condemning the thugs who are looting and burning the city, Stephanie Rawlings-Blake talked about giving `space' to people intent on destruction, showing a startling lack of common sense.

    Yes, she said it.

    Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake stood before the news cameras over the weekend and really did say, "We also gave those who wish to destroy space to do that as well."

    Link

    Ask the people who have lost their businesses, their jobs what they think.

    Parent

    Ask the hundred of families who have (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 07:33:23 AM EST
    Lost loved ones to police violence over the years what they think.

    Parent
    Seriously... (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 12:19:42 PM EST
    CVS is insured, they will be made whole. Might even make a couple bucks on the deal.  As will the redevelopment grifters.

    The Gray family, and the thousands of families who have suffered similar fates, can't be made whole.

    Our priorities are so whacked I can never begin to even understand it.  

    Parent

    From the various interviews (1.00 / 1) (#142)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 06:33:51 PM EST
    the CVS store was the only place many people could get to for their Rx/s, baby diapers, etc.

    Neither of us have any idea what happened to Grey although I think both of us believe it was done by the police.

    Never the less, that does not justify what the rioters did. Many, I add, were just out to steal and destroy.

    Parent

    Nobody is justifying (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 11:28:22 PM EST
    The looting, but the many of the same people riled up about it don't consider police violence against unarmed civilians a serious problem in this country

    yet.

    Parent

    Then why bring the subject up (2.00 / 1) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 07:31:36 AM EST
    That is if you feel that it doesn't justify rioting??

    BTW - Since we're concerned about violence, how many people do you thing the Crips, Bloods and Nation of Islam have harmed in Baltimore?

    Parent

    Because more people are worried about (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 07:38:14 AM EST
    Property damage than the loss of life at the hands of the police over the years that leads to this kind of violence.

    A CVS store can be rebuilt and restocked with a few truckloads of products, the same can't be said about Freddy Grey and the othe numerous victims of official police brutality.

    BTW, I want to congratulate you on being appointed the official Social Liberal scold of the thread.  Do you minds if I bring that up as well?

    Parent

    Oh, and again, BTW (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 07:41:50 AM EST
    Are you saying that we can't expect the police in Baltimore to act any better than the gangs you mentioned?

    Interesting revelation, even if you're obviously comparing apples and oranges.  

    Parent

    What I am saying is that the police should (1.00 / 1) (#190)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:34:50 PM EST
    arrest law breakers and prevent thugs from destroying and looting.

    BTW - We now know that the mayor told the police to lay back.

    She is responsible for much of the damage.

    Parent

    Come On Old Man... (none / 0) (#177)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 10:11:06 AM EST
    ...you surely know going to another CVS, 2 blocks away will get you the same prescriptions, same diapers, same everything.  It's a shame what they did, but the only one losing are the insurance companies, which also cover loss of revenue while cleaning up.

    No one here is justifying violence, well except for you, but not in this thread.  Saying otherwise is a bold face lie, and you know it.

    Parent

    Scott, this is an area of the city where (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 11:03:02 AM EST
    there is no going to "another CVS, 2 blocks away," because there is no other CVS.  This is an area that has been a virtual retail desert, that the community and leaders worked unbelievably hard just to get CVS to put in a store.  Without CVS, it's mom-and-pop corner stores that overcharge for everything.

    So, sorry - it isn't just the insurance companies that are losing, Scott; it's a community that is going to have a very hard time wooing other retail business to the area in the wake of what was done to the CVS.

    Parent

    Maybe Not Literally.... (none / 0) (#184)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 12:20:41 PM EST
    ...but not far.

    CVS

    Wallgreens

    Some stores destroyed is not going to keep people from getting medication which is what Jim is stating.  Inconvenient, maybe but it's not like Katrina where no goods where available in the region.

    If you are stating that CVS is in any way the cheapest place to get goods, my reply is that you obviously don't shop there or Texas is some sort of high priced CVS vortex.  I have yet to find a place that charges more for ordinary goods, including what they charge insurance companies for meds.  Gas stations are cheaper and that is not hyperbole.

    Parent

    Scott, can you please stop talking as if (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 01:46:50 PM EST
    you know what it is you're talking about?  You don't, and why you think you, in Texas, know better than I do about my own city is a mystery to me, but trust me when I tell you that you don't get it.

    Watch a few episodes of The Wire: that's the West Baltimore I'm talking about.

    Parent

    Not that easy (none / 0) (#185)
    by sj on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 12:49:48 PM EST
    Anne is right, it is a retail desert. My former neighborhood -- Reservoir Hill -- only a few blocks from Sandtown had the same problem. There wasn't even a coffee shop in walking distance. The sick and disabled -- which, incidentally is not an invisible population in that area -- in need of a nearby pharmacy may not be able to just jump in their car and go to the next nearest location. It may actually be a multi-bus excursion.

    The gas stations do not have an associated mini-mart.

    I loved my neighborhood and its proximity to Druid Hill Park, but the lack of retail is the primary reason I moved to Mount Vernon neighborhood.

    I think you should stop talking now.

    Parent

    We need more law and order in these situations (none / 0) (#82)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 03:09:43 PM EST
    not less.  If you show weakness to an angry mob they will walk all over you.  The Mayor and the police showed weakness yesterday.  The message being sent is, if you riot/loot you'll probably get away with it.

    Parent
    So, tell us - what would your plan (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 03:30:55 PM EST
    have been - how would you have responded? What guarantee could you make that your plan to show more force would not have escalated and spread the violence rather than quell it?

    How would you guarantee that the people in the neighborhoods would be safe? How would you make it possible for much of the city to function fairly normally?

    Wasn't "more law and order" possibly the reason Freddie Gray is dead?  Wasn't more law and order the reason the city has paid out millions to at least 100 people who were victims of police exercising their law-and-order power?

    I love how you just toss off these answers, like it's just so simple.  It's not.  

    I don't know if all of the decisions the mayor and the police commissioner made in the last 24-48 hours were the right ones, but I also don't know that different decisions would have garnered better results.  

    I find your certainty in the face of much that is still unknown to be facile and naive.

    Parent

    No guarentees (none / 0) (#89)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 04:51:15 PM EST
    I would have called in the National Guard sooner and arrested everyone I possible could who looted or threw things at police and firefighters.  Send the message there will be consequences for bad behavior.

    "Wasn't "more law and order" possibly the reason Freddie Gray is dead?  Wasn't more law and order the reason the city has paid out millions to at least 100 people who were victims of police exercising their law-and-order power?"

    I don't know how Freddie Gray died.  Law and order doesn't mean excessive force.  It means the right amount of force.

    Parent

    The Right Amount of Force ? (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 05:15:18 PM EST
    Are you kidding me, seriously, is there a phase more vague in the English language than 'the right amount'.

    The right amount, that is probably your funniest post that wasn't on purpose.

    No one cares what you would have done if you could get your hands on a flux capacitor.

    I am guessing no one in Baltimore needs convincing that their are repercussion for bad behavior, cough, cough, Freddie Gray.  Seems to me that police repercussions are what landed the city in this mess to begin with.

    Parent

    You're not making any sense (none / 0) (#102)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 08:49:03 PM EST
    If the idiot thugs thought they would end up like Freddie Gray, they wouldn't have rioted in the first place.  Based on what they saw from Ferguson, they probably thought they could  pretty  much do whatever they wanted.

    The cops should have arrested those who broke the law.  The President/DOJ should encourage cities to ignore the the media and do what's necessary to protect the community.    

    Parent

    In other words (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by CST on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 04:34:11 PM EST
    This?

    Parent
    No, don't beat them (none / 0) (#103)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 08:50:50 PM EST
    arrest them.  Got it?

    Parent
    You guys, who, as Shooter aptly (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:36:35 PM EST
    characterized you, exist in mental symbiotic/parasitic relationship with Rush's colon and Fox..

    These are kids, most of whom, have seen friends and relations cuffed, beaten, and wrestled to the ground most at intermittent times most of their lives..

    What do you mean they could have no anticipation of being met by "force"? they've all seen and experienced plenty of exercises of force.

    If anything most of them are hardened to it.

       

    Parent

    So you believe that (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:54:20 PM EST
    the illegal actions of looting, burning and attacking police should be ignored?? Well, they were and guess what.

    We got more looting, burning and attacking.

    You know it is obvious we have a problem. But you can't rebuild a house while someone is trying to burn it down.

    The vast majority of those injured in what you see as a rightful attempt by "kids" to procure their rightful share of someone else's property have nothing to do with the current situation.


    Parent

    So you're saying what? (none / 0) (#74)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 02:04:39 PM EST
    that no one so far has been restrained, arrested, or detained by the police?

    When would you have started arresting people? at the funeral or before?

    Get out of Rush's colon and quit trying to make this about the Mayor and other urban liberals trying to appeal to "Obama's base"

     

    Parent

    It's hard not to do "politically motivated (none / 0) (#61)
    by McBain on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:18:19 PM EST
    maneuvers" when you're in politics. You can't do what you think is right, in the long term, if you don't get reelected.

    I believe liberals often do what they think is right, decent, compassionate and intelligent.  I believe Obama means well.  Not sure about Hillary.

     

    Parent

    Washington Post reporting: (2.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 10:51:02 PM EST
    Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was `trying to injure himself,' document says

    A prisoner sharing a police transport van with Freddie Gray told investigators that he could hear Gray "banging against the walls" of the vehicle and believed that he "was intentionally trying to injure himself," according to a police document obtained by The Washington Post.

    The prisoner, who is currently in jail, was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him.

    His statement is contained in an application for a search warrant, which is sealed by the court.

    I know you don;t believe that (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Palli on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 07:26:49 AM EST
    It's straight straight out of the corrupt LE playbook.

    But if any ones does fall for it then they will believe Matthew Williams hung and burned himself alive in Baltimore in 1931.  

    "Although the Wicomico County grand jury examined 128 witneses, their final report indicated that there was "absolutely no evidence that can remotely connect anyone with the investigation or perpetration of the murder" of Matthew Williams. With that, the case was closed and no further action was taken."

    http://tinyurl.com/qdl8vjo
    Sorry, for taking advantage of a teaching moment

    Parent

    Palli (3.50 / 2) (#161)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:03:25 AM EST
    So then your evidence that Freddie Gray was beaten by police is a 70 year old case -- Please!!!.

    I'm not doubting that there is police brutality and excessive force used in multiple places across the country, but this does not appear to be one of those cases.

    Parent

    So...how does one get a (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:11:52 AM EST
    partially severed spinal cord and a crushed larynx all by himself?

    What is your basis for saying that the Gray case doesn't appear to be one that involved police brutality and/or excessive force?

    Oh, wait - I keep forgetting that he had a rap sheet.  That's it, right?  The guy had a record, so that must mean he deserved whatever happened to him.

    ::rolling eyes::

    Parent

    rolling eyes (2.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:47:41 AM EST
    It had to have been a hard surface coming in contact with the back of the neck, right???

    What in the back of the van has a surface hard enough to do that???

    -- multiple whacks of the butt of an officer's gun or night stick or the seat of the bench that he was sitting on.

    The officer in the van said that he was dropping down and hitting the back of his neck on the bench .

    Is that not a real possibility???

    Video cameras in the back should tell.

    Parent

    Of course it is a real possibility (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by Palli on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 10:58:17 AM EST
    BUT:

    Why was Mr. Gray "dropping down and hitting the back of his neck"?

    Because the officers deliberately did not fasten a seat belt on him as per PD policy.

    Parent

    Then you believe he acquired the injuries (none / 0) (#163)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:08:06 AM EST
    in police company how?

    And of course they found a witness.  You have prisoners and perps in custody who woul tell you Al Capone was their great-grandfather if they thought it would reduce their sentence or get a deal whenever they go to trial on the charges that led to them being arrested and taken into custody.

    Parent

    Yet (none / 0) (#166)
    by FlJoe on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:20:17 AM EST
    you can declare
    this does not appear to be one of those cases.

    Using leaked, "ear witness" statement of a unknown person describing a rather improbable scenario to absolve the police in this case...Please!!

    Parent
    No, Chip, (none / 0) (#182)
    by Palli on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 11:32:08 AM EST
    but I thought I could use a more appropriate localized statement than:
    "If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you."

    I doubt any of us knew about but the LE investigation result I quoted sounds awfully familiar today...

    What does the knowledge of an additional van stop-the second of 4-mean to you?  Note the stop was concealed from the public. The  video proving it has only now been presented by a private CCTV camera at N. Fremont Ave. & Mosher St. 2 blocks away.

    The BPD investigation will not be released tomorrow (Friday). The "completion", a day early,  will only be announced.

    Parent

    From the Mayor's office: (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 11:58:00 AM EST
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE   
    Thursday, April 30, 2015   

    Mayor Rawlings-Blake Announces Baltimore Police Department Has Delivered the Results of its Investigation into the Death of Mr. Freddie Gray to Baltimore City State's Attorney

    BALTIMORE, Md. (April 30, 2015)--Today, Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake announced that the Baltimore Police Department has delivered the results of its initial investigation into the death of Mr. Freddie Gray to the Baltimore City State's Attorney's Office:

    "This morning, the Baltimore Police Department delivered the results of its investigation into the death of Mr. Freddie Gray to the Baltimore City State's Attorney's Office.

    The criminal investigation into Mr. Gray's death is now in the hands of the Office of the State's Attorney, which is also conducting its own independent investigation. The State's Attorney will determine whether to file criminal charges.

    Once the criminal investigation is complete, an internal disciplinary Police Department process can begin.

    Even as the Baltimore City State's Attorney conducts her investigation, it is important to remember that another outside, independent investigation is also taking place by the U.S. Department of Justice.

    The family of Mr. Gray wants answers. I want answers. Our entire city deserves answers into Mr. Gray's death.

    I ask that everyone remain patient and vigilant on this path to justice."


    I do not know why anyone is surprised that the report will not be made public; I'm sure there will be people who see something negative in this, but the truth is that our system of justice is supposed to be built on a core principle of innocent until proven guilty, and this is completely in line with that concept.

    We aren't supposed to investigate and try people in the court of public opinion.  We know there is much that is broken and fractured and corrupt and dysfunctional about the system, not least of which is the relationship between law enforcement and the people they are supposed to serve.

    Believe it or not, I do have some confidence in the new city state's attorney, Marilyn Mosby.  Much more than I would have if the former SA was in charge.

    Parent

    stop (none / 0) (#189)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 02:20:41 PM EST
    What does the knowledge of an additional van stop-the second of 4-mean to you?  Note the stop was concealed from the public.

    a donut stop???

    Parent

    This is interesting but (2.00 / 1) (#151)
    by McBain on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 01:24:28 AM EST
    we need the full medical/toxicology report.

    Parent
    medical/tox report (none / 0) (#156)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 07:40:18 AM EST
    If that's what you're waiting for -- don't hold your breath -- the mayor won't release that.

    Parent
    The report on the investigation into (none / 0) (#160)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:00:28 AM EST
    the death of Freddie Gray is expected to be delivered to the prosecutor's office on Friday; that report will not be made public; it's going into the hands of the city state's attorney, whose office is expected to do its own investigation before making any decisions about whether charges will be filed.

    Parent
    Does Baltimore (none / 0) (#164)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:10:31 AM EST
    have video cameras in those paddy wagons???

    Surely in this day and age they should.

    And if not then why not???

    They would certainly be helpful in this case.

    Parent

    No doubt. But you know who would (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:21:27 AM EST
    fight that?  The police union.

    From The Intercept:

    At a hearing in Annapolis in March, Sgt. Robert Cherry, testifying on behalf of Baltimore police union Lodge 3, called for a continuation of Maryland's long-standing law requiring that police misconduct investigations be conducted only by fellow officers. "Involve your local leadership, your local unions, your local police departments, and let them determine what's best for them," Cherry said, calling for the defeat of "all of these bills."

    "Our chief does not have a problem disciplining bad cops," said Sgt. Clyde Boatwright, president of Baltimore's school police union. "So, we're saying the current system works," he added.
    [...]

    Maryland's Law Enforcement Officer Bill of Rights, one of the strongest such statutes in the nation, is a considerable barrier to police reform. The LEOBR, enacted in 1974, shields officers from oversight by establishing a narrow standard for reviewing police misconduct and limiting the ability of victims to press charges. Current LEOBR law states that officers may not be questioned by their superiors for 10 days following an incident. And once an internal investigation is underway, disciplinary action can only happen after a recommendation by a hearing board comprised of the officer's colleagues.

    Reforms to LEOBR were among the many reform bills shot down during the this legislative session.

    It should be noted that the reform bills that did pass will allow police to wear body cameras.

    And maybe, just maybe, the Freddie Gray case will result in major reforms to the practices and policies of the Baltimore PD.

    Parent

    There is also video of Gray getting into the (none / 0) (#158)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 07:48:52 AM EST
    van so his spinal cord injury happened inside.

    I just can't see how he could have partially severed his spinal cord.

    And why has it taken this long to get the information out?? We need the Med Examiner's report.  

    Never the less I think if there were 20 angels swearing that the police didn't harm Gray the results would have been the same with the same people making excuses.

    Parent

    In these cases, the cops and their buddies (none / 0) (#159)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 07:59:05 AM EST
    around them hardly testify as if they were Angels, but rather disregard for the truth puts them in the camp of the Devils instead.

    Parent
    In this case the "buddy" (none / 0) (#171)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:49:15 AM EST
    had been arrested and in the van but unable to see Gray.

    Parent
    That doesn't mean his hearing was bad (none / 0) (#172)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 09:25:44 AM EST
    so he would've heard any noises from the back of the van.

    You seem eager to exculpate the driver before all the evidence is in.

    Parent

    His statement is based on what he heard (none / 0) (#173)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 09:44:48 AM EST
    So your point is???

    I'm not willing or have I made any comment that indicates I am eager to cut anybody any slack.

    Parent

    I'm saying the cop driving the (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 09:51:46 AM EST
    Van could hear what was going on, and there is this:

    Jayne Miller, a reporter for Baltimore's WBAL, is not having it.
    WBAL's Jayne Miller told MSNBC that the Post's story was "inconsistent with what we reported."

    "We have reported for some time that by the time that prisoner is loaded into that van, Freddie Gray was unresponsive. Secondly we have no medical evidence that Freddie Gray suffered any injury that would indicate that he had injured himself," Miller told MSNBC's Chris Hayes on Wednesday night.    (Ed)

    Gray was only in the van with the second prisoner for the final five minutes of the ride, Miller told Lawrence O'Donnell on Wednesday evening. There is "no evidence [Gray was] banging [his] head against van," Miller tweeted....

    Miller also pointed out that on April 23, Commissioner Batts said that the second prisoner had said Gray was "mostly quiet."(Ed)

    Tell the truth and shame the devil, Jim.

    Parent

    Please stop the baiting (none / 0) (#176)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 10:10:43 AM EST
    If you watch the Slate video you can see that he was responsive and helped get into the van after being carried to it. You can also hear an unknown witness say that he had been tasered.

    What you have provided is a media source defending what they wrote despite clear evidence of it being incorrect.

    I have not wrote that Gray banged his head or tried to harm himself. In fact, I have noted:

    Did it happen in side? Yes. How? We don't know but I have problems thinking he did it himself.

    So my question is this. Why are you disagreeing with me and why are you making statements designed to bait me into a nasty response?


    Parent

    If you can't adhere to the rules of this blog (none / 0) (#179)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 10:31:47 AM EST
    don't come crying to me about it, Jim.

    Parent
    I have asked once, but I will (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 10:00:54 AM EST
    ask again: given that Gray asked for an inhaler prior to being put in the transport vehicle, and given that he could not breathe when they went to get him out of the van, is it unreasonable to suggest that any flailing he was doing was in an effort to get the attention of the police because he needed help?

    From the Baltimore Sun:

    When a handcuffed Freddie Gray was placed in a Baltimore police van on April 12, he was talking and breathing. When the 25-year-old emerged, "he could not talk and he could not breathe," according to one police official, and he died a week later of a spinal injury.

    [...]

    Police officials have not directly linked Gray's van ride to his injuries but did say that he was not buckled in, as required by department policy. Medical experts say Gray could have injured his spine when he was arrested and that injury could have worsened in the van through even an inadvertent bump, turn or stop.

    He's not the first to come out of a transport vehicle paralyzed, as the article from which the excerpt came reports.

    Parent

    Could have? Yes. Could have not? Yes. (none / 0) (#178)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 10:24:20 AM EST
    Had his spine injured during the arrest.

    The Salon video shows him being carried (see my response to Mordiggian) to the van and then helping himself getting in. Did he have a partial "tear/trauma" before then and it became worse while inside?? Maybe yes. Maybe he had no such injury. It doesn't look that way.

    Was he injured inside?? Yes. Did he do it himself? I have trouble thinking he did. If we wanted attention he could have kicked the sides of the van. Or was he partially injured during the arrest and it had become worse and he didn't have control of his legs and used his head? Or did he just use his head? Have you ever seen a child bang their heads on a wall or headboard?

    Necks are broken regularly by divers hitting the bottom of the pool and football player by hitting another player with  their heads (spearing).

    Parent

    Or maybe, after pleading for (none / 0) (#162)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:07:22 AM EST
    medical attention and an inhaler at the scene, he was trying to signal severe distress.  What would you be doing if you were handcuffed and shackled in the back of a van and couldn't breathe?  Just quietly sit there and wait to die?

    There has been some suggestion that the injuries were inflicted on Gray before the video we've seem of him on the ground before being loaded into the van, and that their handling of him afterward, combined with a possible "rough ride" in the van, may have exacerbated those injuries.

    I'm pretty sure the medical examiner wants to get this right; rushing the results isn't going to serve anyone well.

    Parent

    I don't think he got up and into the van (none / 0) (#170)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:47:47 AM EST
    with a severely injured spinal cord.

    Did it happen in side? Yes. How? We don't know but I have problems thinking he did it himself.

    Parent

    Freddie Gray's rap sheet (1.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 08:03:49 AM EST
    From the Daily Mail:

    How Freddie 'Pepper' Gray, 25, lived off a lead paint settlement after being poisoned as a child and was well known to police following at least 18 arrests

    Gee, he really deserved to (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 08:09:12 AM EST
    die in a horrible way at the hands of the police, didn't he?

    Parent
    What a sad story that is (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 09:15:25 AM EST
    Suffered lead poisoning as a child due to toxic levels in disabled mother's rented home and was deemed incapable of leading normal functioning life

    His "rap sheet" is also interesting.  All but two involve "controlled substances".  A couple of "second degree assaults" thrown in.  Love to know mor about those and what brought them on.

    But of course he was just a parasite living off the "lead settlement". That disabled him.  These people are just, you know, lazy.

    Parent

    Don't forget... (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 09:23:32 AM EST
    that with that rap sheet he was "just another thug".  

    You can never have enough dog whistles and thinly veiled code words!

    Parent

    Do you know what exposure to (5.00 / 4) (#115)
    by Anne on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 09:21:51 AM EST
    lead paint as an infant/child can mean on that child's mental and neurological development, and what that can mean over the long-term into adulthood?

    Freddie Gray, on one corner, made eye contact with police across the way, and according to police, took off running.  Is running illegal?  Did police have any reason to go in pursuit of Gray, other than the fact that he was running?

    I guess I'm a little puzzled - aren't you the same person who took others to task for trying to demonize Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown?  

    Do you have a point?

    Parent

    Facts matter (1.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 10:02:15 AM EST
    Did you or the street protestors know about his rap sheet before the Daily Mail ran the article???

    He had gone into that paddy wagon 18 times previously and come out 18 times without incident. This was not his first rodeo.

    Until the Daily Mail article we had all been led to believe that he was just some guy running from the cops. When were the people of Baltimore going to be told about his history -- when the rest of Baltimore burned???

    How many of those burning down Baltimore would have thought differently about doing so if they had had this information in hand to mitigate their anger???

    If this eruption in Baltimore was about Freddie Gray then why are we now being told that its' about everything but -- from jobs to global warming???

    And as far as Mike Brown he died from a point blank bullet in his head as he was falling to the ground. Did Freddie get that treatment??? Apples and Oranges --

    Parent

    So what went wrong (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 10:13:17 AM EST
    that led to a fatal spinal injury at the hands of the police?

    The Daily Mail is a racist newspaper, BTW, in case you hadn't noticed.

    Parent

    Facts Do Matter... (5.00 / 4) (#122)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 10:57:37 AM EST
    ...and unless he was on death row, the punishment far exceeded any crimes he committed.

    I don't get your point here, that people in Baltimore thought they were mad about a black man's death, who was a saint ?

    I highly doubt anyone thought/the guy killed by the police had a clean sheet, if that is your point.

    Parent

    So much wrong with your mindset that (5.00 / 4) (#123)
    by Anne on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 11:47:25 AM EST
    it's hard to know where to start...

    So, in no particular order:

    1.  An arrest is not a conviction.  

    2.  Some people get transported in the back of a police car.

    3.  I have seen in numerous places that Freddie had an arrest record, and a general description of what he had been arrested for.  I don't get my news or my facts from the Daily Mail, which, last I looked, is a British publication considered to be a tabloid.  

    4.  Here's a quote from John Angelos, Orioles chief operating officer and son of Orioles owner Peter Angelos, that may help you understand what's happening:

       Brett, speaking only for myself, I agree with your point that the principle of peaceful, non-violent protest and the observance of the rule of law is of utmost importance in any society. MLK, Gandhi, Mandela and all great opposition leaders throughout history have always preached this precept. Further, it is critical that in any democracy, investigation must be completed and due process must be honored before any government or police members are judged responsible.

        That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night's property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American's civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.

        The innocent working families of all backgrounds whose lives and dreams have been cut short by excessive violence, surveillance, and other abuses of the Bill of Rights by government pay the true price, and ultimate price, and one that far exceeds the importances of any kids' game played tonight, or ever, at Camden Yards. We need to keep in mind people are suffering and dying around the U.S., and while we are thankful no one was injured at Camden Yards, there is a far bigger picture for poor Americans in Baltimore and everywhere who don't have jobs and are losing economic civil and legal rights, and this makes inconvenience at a ballgame irrelevant in light of the needless suffering government is inflicting upon ordinary Americans.

    5.  There are many cities around the country that are one incident away from exploding because the combination of lack of jobs, substandard housing, brutal and harassing treatment by law enforcement has pushed people to the edge.  Freddie Gray didn't deserve to die at what appears to be the hands of police who may not only have caused the injuries he suffered, but who failed to provide or obtain medical attention for him.  

    These are complex problems that don't get resolved overnight.  I don't agree with the violent and destructive actions, but on some level, I do understand where it comes from.  

    If we've reached the point where we no longer treat people any better than stray dogs in the street, then we shouldn't be too surprised when those people lash out; how many times do you get kicked before you kick back?

    Parent

    I agree about the "one incident away" (1.00 / 1) (#126)
    by McBain on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 02:09:18 PM EST
    part but I'm not so sure about the "brutal and harassing treatment by law enforcement part".  That might be another media driven myth.

    Parent
    Tell that to (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by Anne on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 02:31:18 PM EST
    these people:

    Over the past four years, more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations. Victims include a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant accountant who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon rolling a cigarette and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson.

    Those cases detail a frightful human toll. Officers have battered dozens of residents who suffered broken bones -- jaws, noses, arms, legs, ankles -- head trauma, organ failure, and even death, coming during questionable arrests. Some residents were beaten while handcuffed; others were thrown to the pavement.

    And in almost every case, prosecutors or judges dismissed the charges against the victims -- if charges were filed at all. In an incident that drew headlines recently, charges against a South Baltimore man were dropped after a video showed an officer repeatedly punching him -- a beating that led the police commissioner to say he was "shocked."

    Read the whole thing, and then tell me this is all a media-driven myth.

    Parent

    Is your point..... (none / 0) (#138)
    by McBain on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 05:44:06 PM EST
    unnecessary police brutality is getting worse? Or,  It's about same but always been a big problem?

    What about violence against police officers? Is that also a problem? What about overall violent crime in black neighborhoods? poor neighborhoods?

    I'm curious if you see a big picture or if you're focused on only one part.

    Parent

    Since you're all about the questions, (5.00 / 4) (#145)
    by Anne on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 07:35:10 PM EST
    here's one for you: is there a "necessary" form of police brutality?  

    Is it like the "necessary" forms of torture?

    My point is that police brutality, inflicted on an ongoing basis, is not a myth, media-driven or otherwise.  Not in Baltimore, and not, I suspect, in many cities around the country.  Did you read about the secret police interrogation facility in Chicago?  Might want to give that a gander.

    As for the big picture, look around: there are plenty of comments and examples of that big picture, but you don't seem much inclined to take advantage of it.

    I don't think you're as curious as you claim to be.

    Parent

    I'm very curious about this topic (1.50 / 2) (#146)
    by McBain on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 08:06:13 PM EST
    and I don't pretend to have all the answers.  

    As for your brutality question... I believe there are often situations where police have to use violent  physical force to control someone who's resisting arrest.  If brutality is the wrong word, perhaps you can suggest another one?

    As for the big picture, there needs to be a two sided conversation.  Complaining about police brutality without acknowledging the violent crimes committed by the black community won't get us anywhere. Of the two, I believe the bigger problem is the latter but I'm not opposed to convicting bad cops or using body cams.

     

    Parent

    More reading in furtherance of (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by Anne on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 09:09:34 PM EST
    your education on life in West Baltimore.

    "Brutality" is the right word for what Baltimore police did to the 100+ people who prevailed in their complaints over just the last 4 years.  And if you had read the article I linked to earlier, Undue Force, you wouldn't have to suggest that perhaps we need a different word.

    And there are a lot more cases in the pipeline that have not yet been adjudicated.

    Nobody is denying that police deal with violent criminals, but that doesn't balance out their brutal treatment of people who aren't being violent, aren't engaging in criminal activity, are essentially just going about their business.  There's no reason police have to treat an 87-yr old woman the way they treated Venus Green:

    The mother of two and grandmother of seven dedicated her career to teaching special-education students, but couldn't sit still in her retirement years. She had two hobbies: going to church and raising foster kids. Dozens of children funneled through her home. They, like her own grandchildren, called her "Grandma Green."

    Paramedics and police responded to the emergency call, but the white officer became hostile.

    "What happened? Who shot you?" Green recalled the officer saying to her grandson, according to an 11-page letter in which she detailed the incident for her lawyer. Excerpts from the letter were included in her lawsuit. "You're lying. You know you were shot inside that house. We ain't going to help you because you are lying."

    "Mister, he isn't lying," replied Green, who had no criminal record. "He came from down that way running, calling me to call the ambulance."

    [...]

    He shoved Green against the wall. She hit the wooden floor.

    "Bitch, you ain't no better than any of the other old black bitches I have locked up," Green recalled the officer saying as he stood over her. "He pulled me up, pushed me in the dining room over the couch, put his knees in my back, twisted my arms and wrist and put handcuffs on my hands and threw me face down on the couch."

    After pulling Green to her feet, the officer told her she was under arrest. Green complained of pain.

    "My neck and shoulder are hurting," Green told him. "Please take these handcuffs off."

    An African-American officer then walked in the house, saw her sobbing and asked that the handcuffs be removed since Green wasn't violent.

    The cuffs came off, and Green didn't face any charges. But a broken shoulder tormented her for months.

    "I am here because of injuries received to my body by a police officer," Green wrote on stationery stamped with "wish on a star" at the bottom of each page. "I am suffering with pain and at night I can hardly sleep since this incident occurred."

    Dealing with people across an entire spectrum is the job; if these cops can't do the job without brutalizing the citizens they're supposed to be serving, they shouldn't be cops.  

    Parent

    An interesting article you link to (2.00 / 1) (#168)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:43:38 AM EST
    A younger resident, who identified himself as Naz Gibson, 22, and who lives in the Gilmor Homes, said, "The old heads don't understand, we're not going to take a back seat anymore. We don't wanna live like them. Look around! We're going to do better!

    The question is, how does he intend to do that?

    Would he be satisfied with a job in manufacturing if the job existed? Would he have the discipline to get up 5 days a week and work 8 to 5?

    Most people learn self discipline by observing their parents. If their parents don't go to work and still exist, however poorly, how do they learn?

    My parents worked. My generation worked. Made In The USA meant quality. The small town I now live in in the mid 70's had around 5000 manufacturing jobs that paid well with full benefits including employer defined retirement.

    Zenith TV's, the top of the line, were manufactured in AR. Now iPhones are made in China and we brag about how wonderful it is to have one.

    Where and how did our jobs leave the country??

    I remember when Japanese cars were sneered at as "rice burners." Yet now we are happy when a foreign company locates a factory in the US. What happened? How did we stop competing??

    I applaud the lady who rescued her son but she has 6 children with no man in the house. That's a formula for disaster. How do we stop that?

    Yes, Anne, I know I am nasty mean old man. But I also know that the problem is far deeper the police. Do you, or any commentator on TalkLeft, want to have a discussion on that or do you just want to talk about symptoms?
     

    Parent

    I'm glad you know (none / 0) (#186)
    by sj on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 12:58:26 PM EST
    you are a nasty mean old man.

    Parent
    By their fruits ye shall know them. (none / 0) (#187)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 01:11:01 PM EST
    Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    Parent
    And if anyone can recognize a myth, McBain, ... (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 03:59:08 PM EST
    ... it's someone like you, who regularly traffics in them.

    Parent
    Stick With That... (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 04:17:00 PM EST
    I'm not so sure

    It's funny to watch you make a claim with absolutely no evidence, the good ole GWB gut feeling, that coincidentally matches your world view.

    Like the Warden as Shawshank declared, It's a miracle !!

    Parent

    et al (none / 0) (#191)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 08:52:50 PM EST
    I am very pleased that you have demonstrated that you don't want to discuss the problems and potential solutions.

    In this old man's world people who bitch and criticize but who cannot define the problem(s) and state some solution(s)don't deserve a "place at the table."

    But I will try and give you another chance.

    Consider this.

    Drug use is epidemic in many communities. The sellers recruit young men to sell the drugs and take the falls and jail time. And while it is easy to tell them to find other work, their choice if there is one, is usually between an $8.00 job flipping burgers or $300 a day selling/delivering dope.

    Which would you take?? Don't answer. The question is largely rhetorical and the number of drug arrests provide the answer.

    How about making MJ legal and selling in ABC stores? Plus, make all other drugs except Date Rape and Speed available for free at the local drug store. Just sign up and get all you want.

    Then make illegal selling a 10 year first offense crime and pour lots of money into education. You can also use the money saved by the reduced budgets to provide free trade schools and two colleges. And a real jobs program paying real money for work in cleaning and repairing the infrastructure. Kind of a CCC that FDR had.

    Your turn.

    Parent

    Decriminalization would be a start. (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Anne on Fri May 01, 2015 at 09:10:47 AM EST
    Legalize marijuana and regulate it like alcohol and tobacco. Decriminalize the possession of specific quantities of other drugs for x number of offenses, and instead of felony charges for subsequent offenses, divert people into rehabilitation/education programs.  Take those offenses off someone's record for successful completion of a GED program, or job training or for volunteering in a community center or becoming a Big Brother or Big Sister.  

    There have to be jobs for people if any of this is going to work.  There isn't much point in being employable if there are no places to be employed at wages that can actually support someone.  No one can live on minimum wage unless they have multiple jobs.  

    There has to be housing.  Housing code violations need to be addressed.  

    And this isn't a case of being able to do just one thing at a time before moving to the next item on the list - much of this needs to all be happening concurrently.

    Parent

    Just legalize everything from Ambient (none / 0) (#192)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri May 01, 2015 at 04:57:42 AM EST
    To Zoloft and anything else in between, stop locking people up for being drug addicts, and tax the drugs enough enough to fund rehab but not enough to to make an illegal market a financially viable alternative.

    Parent
    I can see taxing MJ (none / 0) (#193)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 01, 2015 at 05:20:10 AM EST
    but taxing the addictive drugs will just lead to illegal sales.

    Give'em away. The savings in police work and other crime costs will pay for rehab and education.

    How about the jobs program?

    Parent

    Nope, a 1 or 2% tax (none / 0) (#194)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri May 01, 2015 at 05:40:47 AM EST
    won't be enough to make illegal sales tempting.  You clearly are mistaking your ingrained prejudices for reasonable analysis.

    Parent
    Just had to dig, eh?? (none / 0) (#196)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 01, 2015 at 07:31:04 AM EST
    I agree a 1% or 2% tax is not much, but based on what?? Remember I said give the drugs away. That would be free.

    So it would depend on what the government said the value of the drug was. A $500 dose of coke at 2% is $10. If the addict is unemployed that is substantial.

    Plus, since it is a source of revenue the government would always be pushing to increase it.

    I remember when the first sales tax hit. It was for free school books, a noble and needy cause. Now it is near 10% in many states and is used for many things.

    Remember the purpose is to remove any temptation to do any crime to make money selling the drug or make money to buy the drug.

    Parent

    You have to charge people something (none / 0) (#198)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri May 01, 2015 at 08:35:21 AM EST
    Because,TAAFL, remember?

     Quit thinking that a response has to agree with you because you got it all worked out in your head.

    Parent

    The response isn't the problem (none / 0) (#199)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 01, 2015 at 08:48:46 AM EST
    it is your ass u me d comment that I am against all taxes.

    And the dope isn't free. Taxpayer money pays for it.

    Now, how about a work program??

    Eight to five, five days a week paying $10/hour???

    Parent

    Well, if I talk about taxes (none / 0) (#200)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri May 01, 2015 at 09:01:43 AM EST
    That implies I disagree with your plan to give it away, correct?

    Nothing complicated is needed, to judge by the example of Portugal:

    One gram of heroin, two grams of cocaine, 25 grams of marijuana leaves or five grams of hashish: These are the drug quantities one can legally purchase and possess in Portugal, carrying them through the streets of Lisbon in a pants pocket, say, without fear of repercussion. MDMA -- the active ingredient in ecstasy -- and amphetamines -- including speed and meth -- can also be possessed in amounts up to one gram. That's roughly enough of each of these drugs to last 10 days.




    Parent
    jim, do you see the (none / 0) (#195)
    by fishcamp on Fri May 01, 2015 at 07:22:29 AM EST
    drug manufacturers giving away their drugs?  I don't.

    Parent
    No, but I do see the government (none / 0) (#197)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 01, 2015 at 07:32:51 AM EST
    buying the drugs.

    Which would put a crimp in certain parts of the south Florida economy.

    Other than that, do you see my prop a good thing?

    Parent

    Baltimore LE learned nothing from Ferguson (none / 0) (#4)
    by Palli on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 12:26:46 AM EST
    The Baltimore Police Department should have have just STOPPED  "nickel rides" years ago.

    The Baltimore Police Department should have not shut down the busses and the transit line before school was out.
    A clear narration of what my students and I just saw (and please SHARE this so people know the story): we drove into Mondawmin, knowing it was going to be a mess. I was trying to get them home before anything insane happened. The students were JUST getting out of Douglas, but before that could even happen, the police were forcing busses to stop and unload all their passengers. Then, Douglas students, in huge herds, were trying to leave on various busses but couldn't catch any because they were all shut down. No kids were yet around except about 20, who looked like they were waiting for police to do something. The cops, on the other hand, were in full riot gear marching toward any small social clique of students who looked as if they were just milling about. It looked as if there were hundreds of cops. So, me, personally, if I were a Douglas student that just got trapped in the middle of a minefield BY cops without any way to get home and completely in harm's way, I'd be ready to pop off, too.
    Meghann Victoria Harris, HS teacher April 2015

    The Baltimore Police Department should have left their riot gear & military armored cars in Iraq.

    The Baltimore Police Department should protect and serve. You say  violence doesn't help-what is the military for?  Cut the budget, it doesn't help.  

    None of this would be happening if LE was just and, by the way, keeping the peace is not starting the riot.

    The teacher who allegedly wrote that comment (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 05:49:50 AM EST
    "understands" the reaction of high school students frustrated by not being able to get on a bus to throw rocks, bricks, hunks of cement at law enforcement, and then go on to break windows, loot businesses and set them on fire?  Really?  This person is teaching our children?  That explains a lot, I guess.

    Further, the police commissioner communicated his concerns and what they had been seeing on social media with the head of the city school system, which in turn communicated what had been learned with the schools directly in the area of Mondawmin.  Those schools indicated they would take the opportunity to have a "teachable moment" with their students.

    Are you familiar with The Purge?  Maybe you should check it out and have some appreciation of what the police felt they needed to be prepared for.

    So, my question is more for those schools' administration: what did they do to minimize the chances that the plans disseminated via social media could be carried out.  Staggered dismissal?  Asking parents to come and get their children and accompany them home?  I don't know - but trust me when I tell you, there are going to be questions about how the schools handled this.

    Further, after the events of Saturday night, for the police not to be prepared for objects to be hurled at them would have meant many more than 15 police officers injured yesterday, and the likelihood that the injuries that were suffered would have been much worse.

    For days leading up to what happened yesterday, police did not exhibit a military-style presence, did not wear full riot gear, but allowed those protesting the events surrounding the death of Freddie Gray to exercise their constitutional right to speak and to assemble.

    I am not excusing what happened to Gray - or to the many others who have been harmed by interaction with police - and am as sick as anyone at the bullying, milataristic approach law enforcement has shown with little accountability, but comments like yours annoy me - mainly because they appear to be delivered without a whole lot of critical thinking or common sense.

    Parent

    Anne, sick of LE bullies is not dead (3.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Palli on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 06:44:43 AM EST
    Unheard people are rioters, to paraphrase MLK Jr. African American citizens would have to be harden and cunning criminals (like Wall Street con men) to effectively lash out at the Banking industry, the Check Cash industry, the Realty industry, the Food Sales Industry, the Legislatures, the CEOs and their fellow citizens in the safe suburban conclaves who have all-from the beginning of the United States-conspired to deprive them of the full promise of our Nation.  
    Ask yourself: Why were the transit systems closed down?

    Trust me when I tell you, there are not going to be meaningful questions (let alone changes) about how LE handled this unless people like us use some critical thinking and common sense and make it happen. Liberals who have had the power and the "enlightenment" to recognize the systemic problems are the problem. How dare we rest on the pious dialogue "I am not excusing what happened to Freddie Gray" or Dondi Johnson Sr. or Christine Abbott or Jeffrey Alston or... We have the power to share the resources of centuries of America's ill got gains.

    Conor Friedersdorf's article in the Atlantic last week:
    "There are so many good reasons for locals to be outraged...And almost none of us noticed!"  http://tinyurl.com/ntlyhf4

    Parent

    What you don't seem to be able to (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 08:44:01 AM EST
    comprehend is that there's a difference between how law enforcement handled its interaction with Freddie Gray, and how law enforcement handled being attacked with rocks, bricks and hunks of cement for doing nothing other than being present to protect a location about which there had been much noise about "The Purge"-style activity.

    What the 6 police officers involved with the arrest of Freddie Gray did does not give people license to ignore the law themselves.  It just doesn't.  And that's what yesterday's events were all about.  This wasn't about Freddie Gray.  Do you think Freddie Gray's memory, or any injustice he suffered, is mitigated by stealing trash bags full of merchandise from the CVS or the stores in the mall?  Do a couple cases of Gatorade and toilet paper provide solace for years of poverty or lack of jobs or racial animus?  For how long - 10 minutes?

    No, sorry - what happened to Freddie isn't solved by destroying the neighborhoods and stores where people live.  And there's nothing pious about that.  I don't condone what happened to him - whatever it was - but I don't condone wanton lawlessness and violence we saw yesterday.

    Today I feel less safe because of the citizens, not because of the police, and the end result is that the larger world is finding it hard to keep the focus on police misconduct when all they are seeing are cars and buildings on fire because of citizen action.

    Parent

    Anne (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Palli on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 06:21:09 PM EST
    You might "feel less safe today because of the citizens"...but how long have Baltimore African American been feeling unsafe because of Baltimore police Department.  

    Baltimore favored citizens should have had a clear focus on the PD long ago. But now it is too hard trying to keep your focus on police misconduct?

    Parent

    I would actually guess (none / 0) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 08:50:43 AM EST
    that one of the goals was to make enough people feel less safe that they will start trying to do something about the kind of brutality that led to Grays death.

    Parent
    No, Howdy, that's not what this was about. (none / 0) (#24)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:43:18 AM EST
    I know I can't convince you of that, and I feel like you really want yesterday's violence to be about the larger goal of justice and for a higher and righteous purpose, but it wasn't.

    It may eventually get there - but if it does, it will happen through the efforts of the kinds of people who protested peacefully all week, together with community and religious leaders, and the people who have turned out today to help clean up the mess.

    Parent

    it was about anger (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by CST on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:45:57 AM EST
    that doesn't make it right, it makes it inevitable in a way though.

    Like the LA riots.  Or Paris.

    And if it gets there it will be for all the reasons you mention.  And if it doesn't get there there will probably be more riots.

    Parent

    You misunderstand (2.00 / 1) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:56:50 AM EST
    you really want yesterday's violence to be about the larger goal of justice and for a higher and righteous purpose, but it wasn't.

    IMO it was about payback.  It was about fighting fear and violence with fear and violence.  And IMO it's just begun.  And I agree that progress will be made by the people you mention.  I just think there are people who believe their hand may be strengthened by a little fear of what might happen if it is not.

    Parent

    It's About All of It... (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:14:48 AM EST
    ...everything mentioned above by all.  No one aspect can be removed and think it will calm the city, some people are driven by anger, some driven by fear, some by greed, and a whole host of other reasons.  And yesterday they were all mixed together in some dysfunctional synergy that could not be contained.

    Anne, I am truly sorry that your city is in chaos.  It breaks my heart that people are so desperate that they are willing to destroy their own neighborhoods.  And if Baltimore and Ferguson are any indication, the violence is there just waiting to erupt, people are tired of being punching bags for the police.  

    And right or wrong, it's certainly got to have an effect on cops, not because it's wrong or unjust, but the fact that the idiot they work with who likes playing outside the law just might be the idiot behind the burning city they will be tasked to contain.  Something I can't imagine any cop wanting to do.  Right now there has got to be some boys in blue pretty damn upset with the crew that brought in Mr. Gray, and rightfully so.

    Parent

    Well said (none / 0) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:18:51 AM EST
    i could not agree more

    Parent
    Yes, real progress can be (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by KeysDan on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 03:45:09 PM EST
    made with peaceful and prudent protestors.  But, some see protestors and thugs as seamless disorder, one and the same.  The civil disobedience of MLK, Jr. was seen as violence...since it provoked violence in those who objected to the civil obedience, the inconvenience, and the cause itself.

    For example, at the time, the protest in  Selma (March 1965) was no different from the Watts Riots (August 1965).  Both undermined the desired status quo.

    An armistice can be called. Police and National Guard can restore quiet and the community can re-build, but there is unlikely to be peace and harmony.  Unless, systemic issues are addressed.  

    Most Americans may have little encounter with the police, perhaps to guide traffic during Sunday Church services. But, for those in poor, urban communities, the police are  ever-present, ever-in-mind, for young and old, as a symbol of all that they perceive as being wrong with their lot in life.

    While issues of jobs and drugs are fundamental, the interaction with police, and the re-thinking of what constitutes effective policing in America is a good place to start.

    Parent

    People who aren't there should ... (none / 0) (#8)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 06:14:40 AM EST
    ... probably avoid opining about which public official is / isn't doing his / her job. Admittedly, I have a fairly hazy picture of what's really going on in Baltimore, and my faith in the cable news networks is such that I wouldn't trust them to deliver a birthday present without putting some serious spin on it.

    Given that relatively low level of accurate information, it's really not my place to pass judgment on how the local authorities are handling this situation. It's your home turf and again, I appreciate the personal perspective you bring as someone who likely knows more about both the greater Baltimore community and its various leaders better than anyone else here.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I'm sure we'll also be seeing ... (none / 0) (#11)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 07:34:27 AM EST
    ... this particular video repeatedly over the coming days. Apparently, this Baltimore mother was watching the mayhem on television, recognized her teenaged son in the live broadcast as one of the participants, and quickly determined that she wasn't going to put up with any of it. So she hastened out to get him, probably scared that he could be arrested, hurt or even worse before she managed to find and retrieve him from harm's way.

    As the video opens, she's found her son still at the scene, and is physically pulling him away. She then proceeds to slap him around and cuss him as only a truly angry mother could do to her nearly grown son, clearly freaked out that he'd so foolishly court fate like that. And judging from that look of embarrassment and shame on his face after she yanked his mask off and continued yelling at him, one can only hope that she got her point across to him.

    (Sigh!) If only every cub in the city had a mother bear like her.

    Parent

    Can I ask a question? (2.00 / 1) (#31)
    by NycNate on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 10:36:04 AM EST
    To me, the mother having to do the duty of the father is/was the issue.  All this mayhem was done by kids.  

    A city of 600K couldn't effectively control kids.  Where were the parents?  The most damning thing last night was a tweet by the Baltimore PD asking parents to come and get their kids.  That's the source of the problem.  

    Where were the men to put this down?  Women in these communities are at the whim of the wolves.  And many of them are teens.  Like Trayvon, Tamir Rice, and Mike Brown.

    Parent

    I really don't know. (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 02:01:59 PM EST
    NycNate: "Where were the men to put this down? Women in these communities are at the whim of the wolves.  And many of them are teens. Like Trayvon, Tamir Rice, and Mike Brown."

    But judging by not only this deliberately provocative post, but also your previous race-baiting comments in prior threads for which the host recently admonished you to cease and desist (to no apparent avail), I'd have to say that your own father and mother didn't exactly do a great job of instilling some common sense, decency, respect and courtesy in you.

    You can't say you weren't warned, man.

    Parent

    Despicable comment (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by sj on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 03:23:28 PM EST
    Even worse the second time it was posted.

    Parent
    Hmmmm (none / 0) (#98)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 06:24:34 PM EST
    Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) spoke out on the protests surrounding the death of Freddie Gray in Baltimore, linking the violence to a "lack of fathers" in an interview with right-wing radio host Laura Ingraham on Tuesday.

    "I came through the train on Baltimore [sic] last night, I'm glad the train didn't stop," Paul said, laughing.



    Parent
    Good Ole Fathers Like This: (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 09:34:19 AM EST
    Ron Paul and other right-wing figures will appear in a new anti-Semitic film encouraging viewers to join the Oath Keepers gun group to stop the threat of martial law.

    Paul, the former Republican congressman and presidential candidate, will star in "Midnight Ride," directed by 9/11 truther James Jaeger, reported Right Wing Watch.


    LINK

    Parent
    Teah, says he the father (none / 0) (#99)
    by Palli on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 06:36:31 PM EST
    of a son with 2 DUI stops and another recent DUI charge still pending.  family values

    Parent
    It doesn't count if the father (none / 0) (#116)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 09:22:22 AM EST
    is running for President, apparently.

    Parent
    Yes, you would think Rand Paul (none / 0) (#125)
    by KeysDan on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 12:23:35 PM EST
    would have the decency to go easy on the  Daddy lecture, when he has, so recently, a specific family problem.  His son was cited this month for a DUI after he rear-ended a parked car at 11:24 AM.   This makes the third DUI citation for Paul's son, including those in October 2013 (underage drinking) and January 2013 (intoxication and assault of a female flight attendant on landing).

    Parent
    Can I ask a question? (1.00 / 1) (#32)
    by NycNate on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 10:41:31 AM EST
    To me, the mother having to do the duty of the father is/was the issue.  All this mayhem was done by kids.  

    A city of 600K couldn't effectively control kids.  Where were the parents?  The most damning thing last night was a tweet by the Baltimore PD asking parents to come and get their kids.  That's the source of the problem.  

    Where were the men to put this down?  Women in these communities are at the whim of the wolves.  And many of them are teens.  Like Trayvon, Tamir Rice, and Mike Brown.

    Parent

    Drop It (5.00 / 5) (#38)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:23:50 AM EST
    More race baiting and gibberish.

    Parent
    and sexism (5.00 / 5) (#77)
    by Peter G on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 02:18:00 PM EST
    while we're at it

    Parent
    Better question (none / 0) (#97)
    by Palli on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 06:24:03 PM EST
    Where was the public transportation system to take them home after school?  200 adults arrested yesterday, fewer than 20 kids, as of a a few hours ago no arraignments for bail yet either.  

    Parent
    and I loved her pink cellphone... (none / 0) (#51)
    by fishcamp on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 12:31:24 PM EST


    Parent
    I expected the end of this tale would be (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    that mom was arrested on the spot for child abuse.

    Parent
    I Would Expect... (none / 0) (#81)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 02:44:12 PM EST
    ...an arrest considering that she told people she saw her son throwing rocks or bricks at the police.

    Parent
    There is a contemporaneous Twitter description (none / 0) (#94)
    by Palli on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 06:14:27 PM EST
    of this occurrence you describe. But the Mother was not there pulling her son from his groupthink destructive before to save her city. She was there to save her son from the police.  She wants her child to live to see another day- hell with the material trappings of  underprivileged Baltimore.

    Parent
    Isn't that what I said? (none / 0) (#106)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 05:29:27 AM EST
    "So she hastened out to get him, probably scared that he could be arrested, hurt or even worse before she managed to find and retrieve him from harm's way."

    I said nothing about her wanting to save the city.

    Parent

    Aloha, Donald sorry if you felt I was not reading (none / 0) (#108)
    by Palli on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 06:59:14 AM EST
    Yes, I was just clarifying because you said "probably".
    Of course, the RW promptly misappropriated the event to symbolize the mother's "law & order" & strengthen the aggressive Black male implied message.

    Parent
    But I didn't need "clarification." (none / 0) (#130)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 03:39:00 PM EST
    There's a good reason why I qualified my statements with the words "probably" and "likely," and that's because I can't read minds.

    While I can assume what that woman was thinking when she set out to retrieve her son, it should not therefore follow that her motives are thus to be considered as fact, when they're not necessarily even in evidence.

    Based upon what I saw in that video, I think I can reasonably believe that she had likely her son's best long-term interests in mind when she acted.

    But absent a personal confirmation on the woman's part, such an assumption of her motive on my part should not subsequently be "clarified" by you as a definitive fact, because if I've learned anything about myself over the decades, it's that my assumptions are hardly 100% fool-proof.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    fwiw, I believe she has been interviewed (none / 0) (#136)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 04:25:13 PM EST
    and has said that she her motivation at the time was that she didn't want her only son to end up like Freddie Gray.

    Parent
    Thanks. (none / 0) (#143)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 06:35:35 PM EST
    I finally saw the interview with CBS News a little while ago.

    Parent
    Donald (none / 0) (#140)
    by Palli on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 06:22:31 PM EST
    Sorry you ware offended at my gall to clarify issues surrounding an event. What bothered you about what I said since tour account of the CBS bit was longer but not really different than the clarification ! wrote?

    I wasn't reading minds because I was making reference to actual contemporaneous information from neighborhood people & demonstrators who knew the mother and watched the unfolding-clarifying. I wrote what I was told, not my assumption. At that moment I was unaware CBS would "interview" her as I tend to follow reporters with a trusted & consistent track record reporting on demonstrations. I would not base my assumptions on a few seconds from a CBS microphone anyway.

    Now both of us have spent too much time on a personal  disagreement(?) that has little consequence to the citizens of Baltimore who are bearing the brunt of our national hypocrisy.

    Parent

    There is a contemporaneous Twitter description (none / 0) (#95)
    by Palli on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 06:19:16 PM EST
    of this occurrence you describe. The Mother was not there pulling her son from his groupthink destructive to save her city. She was there to save her son from the police.  She wants her child to live to see another day- hell with the material trappings of  underprivileged Baltimore.

    I remember my father doing the same thing-pulling me out of a melee with my fellow students & city cops-in the first floor hall of UW-Madison Bascom Hall in 1968.

    Parent

    It's not 1968 (none / 0) (#101)
    by Jack203 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 07:08:32 PM EST
    Spreading hate and fear may be a solution in your mind, but not mine.    

    Parent
    What? (none / 0) (#105)
    by Palli on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 10:34:12 PM EST


    Parent
    "Mom of the Year"? (none / 0) (#137)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 04:28:22 PM EST
    Toya Graham says she took matters into her own hands because "that's my only son and at the end of the day, I don't want him to be a Freddie Gray."

    She told CBS News in an interview that when she found the 16-year-old and saw him wearing a hoodie and a mask, "I just lost it. I was shocked, I was angry, because you never want to see your child out there doing that."

    While Ms. Graham's boy may not presently appreciate what she did on that street, I hope that he'll grow to respect her "tough love" approach to his foolhardy decision when he gets older -- because she probably saved him from some serious grief.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Ferguson, NYC, Baltimore coming to your city soon (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by Palli on Thu Apr 30, 2015 at 07:05:31 AM EST
    Monday MD Gov. suspended the "need" for Americans arrested without warrants to be charged or released with 24 hours.

    All over America, elected municipal/state officials have ceded power and policy to Law Enforcement. As Baltimore mayor said "I'm not going to insert myself" in potentially hostile situation." Right, leave it to the professionals-professionals of violence.

    From Marc Lamont Hill:
     "We have to examine the fundamental structure of the law itself, as well as the nature & logic of policing. How are they indebted to racism?"
     "The "few bad apples" argument about law  enforcement misses the point. It prompts us to look purely at individuals rather than structures."

    Parent

    Interesting comment (none / 0) (#6)
    by jbindc on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 04:43:55 AM EST
    Since LE HADN'T been in riot gear basically until yesterday AFTER the looting and violence started.  They made a point of restraining, and in fact, were widely criticized yesterday for holding back too much. Even retreating, and letting these thugs do too much damage for too long.

    Whatever these idiots think they're doing in the name of Freddie Gray or justice is just ridiculous.  Thankfully, many of them don't seem to be mental giants, and their faces are on millions of camera shots, so they can be dealt with appropriately - hopefully before they do any more damage or hurt anybody else.

    Parent

    Apples and oranges (2.25 / 4) (#10)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 07:31:11 AM EST
    "Whatever these idiots think they're doing in the name of Freddie Gray or justice is just ridiculous."

    "These idiots," I'll bet you, If you asked them, "who is Freddie Gray?" would answer, "duh, who cares, there's flat screens in that store over there just begging to get into my house."

    I doubt very much that a majority of the thugs and crooks doing the destruction, and looting, are Freddie Gray mourners, turned violent.

    They're thugs and criminals, and Freddie Gray just offered them a convenient pretext to do what they probably wish they could do 7 days a week anyway.

    Parent

    "They" (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:06:11 AM EST
    Unreal.  

    Another "they" is murdered by "Law Enforcement" in a long line of "thugs and criminals" murdered by "Law Enforcement" and all y'all are complaining about are the subsequent property crimes.  

    Well, that and "their" insufficiently expressed gratitude for your politely, propertied and whitely, expressed misgivings over the "Law Enforcement" community's brutality and indifference.

    I doubt very much that a majority of the thugs and crooks doing the destruction, and looting, are Freddie Gray mourners...

    Do you really believe "they" are incapable of communication, of feeling? Or were you parodying the moral authority of an Archie Bunker?

    Palli was spot on.  This thread is the low water mark at TalkLeft.


    Parent

    It seems (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:10:49 AM EST
    "they" are tired of asking nicely.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:02:08 AM EST
    So it makes perfect sense to cut the fire hose that is being used to save the place of employment of your neighbors.

    Parent
    Did Anyone Say... (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:37:02 AM EST
    ...any of this makes sense ?  I think the argument being made is to why, but no one is claiming that this is the logic choice.

    How many angry people make good decisions, or the best decision.  Most people don't go to the place this has gone to, but then again most people don't know the pain of being poor and black in a city where the police have snapped the spinal cord of black man.

    Parent

    Thank you for closing (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:22:02 AM EST
    the clueless circle.

    Ask your self if you were the person who had nothing A.) how much would you care if your neighbor had nothing and B.) does it not seem they might be more easily able to relate if they had nothing also.

    Thank you again for the perfect clueless response.


    Parent

    You previously (none / 0) (#40)
    by Reconstructionist on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 11:33:57 AM EST
      aligned with the 1% of the 1% and made it clear which side of the class divide with which you identify, but you can do that without so callously demeaning those on the  down side of the divide, and surely without the racially charged code words.

       

    Parent

    Flat screens in the store over there.. (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:08:56 PM EST
    which would closely approximate the mentality of the economic-thug absentee slum lords who most of these young people have observed at close quarters for much of their lives..

    Parent
    Our new AG (none / 0) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 08:55:15 AM EST
    has said she plans a Hillaryish listening tour to meet with local PDs.  I have no idea what her goals are for that but if she could find a way to stop this it would be quite a legacy.

    A "listening tour" of the P.D.s (none / 0) (#19)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:10:35 AM EST
    Well, I guess it beats a "listening tour" of the mortuaries where the P.D. victims end up.

    Parent
    I know I know (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:12:32 AM EST
    probably a pipe dream.   She is supposed to be quite a law and order type.  But she is also a black woman.  We can hope.  

    Parent
    please do not reprint (none / 0) (#67)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 01:38:24 PM EST
    huge paragraphs of articles. Quote a short paragraph or two to make your point and provide a link.

    FYI (none / 0) (#100)
    by Palli on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 06:44:15 PM EST
    Listing of WHITE Race Riots in America

    http://mediadiversified.org

    Do you have a point? (3.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Jack203 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:24:58 PM EST
    Besides race baiting.


    Parent
    I Would Suggest... (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 09:57:41 AM EST
    ...you Google 'Race Baiting' because you clearly do not know what it means.

    Parent
    Riots in Baltimore After Freddie Gray Funeral | 200 comments (200 topical)