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Thursday Open Thread

I'll be on the road today and tomorrow. Last Night in Little Rock and TChris will fill in some during my absence, and I'll try to get a post or two in, but there also will be an open thread each day, like this one, for readers to take over.

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    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    Aparently, my joke that FEMA was behaving like the FEMA of the X-Files (Federal Estate Management Agency: prevent supplies from getting into the city to ensure the creation of the "greatest number of estates" for estate planning lawyer Michael Brown to "plan") turns out to be no joke.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    3 explanations for why Bush is ignoring New Orleans: 1) Tough Love--he wants these folks to learn how to fend for themselves. 2) There's oil under all that substandard housing that's just been destroyed by Katrina and he wants all those folks out of there so the gas companies can buy up the land on the cheap. 3) They want all those poor black folks out of there so they can build a high priced playground for the rich on the Gulf Coast.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    This is my first time back here since my wife died last December and hilariously NOTHINGS CHANGED!!! All the self-righteous hand-wringing over those "paw black folks" and the underclass. As you enjoy your lilywhite lives. Who are the majority of the people down there doing tough duty trying to get things turned around? Who are the majority of the people shooting at the rescuers? ANYTHING you can use to polarize and divide the country is OK with you people and the rest of the country sees it.The poll numbers say to cool it. So stop and let the country heal before you start going after the scabs.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    LWW--You must be getting your information from Fox News. Why don't you change the channel and widen your perspective. My sympathies go out to you for the loss of your wife, and to all those along the Gulf Coast who lost loved ones, as well.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    Sorry about your wife.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    LWW...classic wingnut tirade. You use the term "paw black folks", then make some unsubstantiated racial claims, followed by the accusation that WE are the polarizing ones. Yeah, like it's our fault that your side, who is in charge, prefers to let poor people drown because it costs too much money to save them.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    Ernesto- Who was "in charge" locally? What are the Governors and Mayors jobs if not to take care of local problems? Aren't they supposed to be doing SOMETHING? Is it ALL the federal Gov'ts responsiblity? I don't hear anyone from MS or AL bellyaching about the situation the way LA is bellyaching. Could the Gov and mayor be doing the deflecting of criticism towards the feds? Also, the unsubstantiated racial claims I supposedly made? What is unsubstantiated? Please enlighten me on where I was wrong.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    For those who dont remember, LWW is to the right of Himmler. Racist, sexist, you name it. Best to ignore him completely.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    Has anyone else had the opportunity to watch Bernard Kerik, the ex-police chief of NY City compare 9/11 to Katrina? How the local response in New York had a leadership quality that is lacking in New Orleans? He accuses the locals in New Orleans of total incompetency. How can anyone compare the 2? What do these people expect of New Orleans? For starters, New Orleans had 1,700 police officers. New York has 39,110. Not to minimize their loss, but New York lost the Twin Towers and surrounding areas. The entire city of New Orleans was 8-15 feet under water.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    LWW, go read the facts on previous katrina threads and come back when you know something about the subject other than rnc talking points. In other news: Mac and linux users aren't allowed on fema site to apply for aid, only windoze and ie6 work on the form. canadian rescue soldiers were in La 5 days before us. fema waited until a bushco rep (and previous fema director) was in before activating. Gov perry of texass urges folks to donate ... to him. The slow resonse to the poorest neighborhoods was apparently planned so rich folks can make a huge land grab. repubs call for bicameral, bipartisan investigation ... but refuse to allow dems at press conference or have equal input on panel. (hastert is already on record as saying NOLA should be bulldozed.) repubs refuse to allow dems to read or have input on new emergency disaster fund bill

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    Yeah Roger, best to ignore me. Racist, yeah I worked in a black ghetto for twenty years and lived in diverse neighborhoods my entire life. Sexist, yeah, I was married for 28 yrs and have 4 daughters who would beg to differ with you. Don't answer any questions I have, that might make you look stupid. Or you could answer them and make me look stupid....but alas you can't.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    For those who dont remember, LWW is to the right of Himmler. Racist, sexist, you name it.
    Ahhh... it's coming back to me.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    If "Terrorists" had used several rental trucks and blew up the levees. Please explain what would the dept of home land Insecurity have done? What if some one blew up a dirty bomb in NOLA what would have been done? This could have been Mother Bin Laden instead of Mother nature attacking our Country. Why is it so many fools spend so much time defending the INDEFENSEABLE. The president is the Commander in CHIEF. I wonder if you fools understand what a CHIEF is?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    Hey sailor I have some "facts" for you. When Katrina left Florida ( Jebs state)Bush sent the USAF to seed the storm, steer it towards New orleans so it would drown black people,raise the price of oil, give Haliburton fat repair contracts and make the dem Gov and Mayor look like stupid incompetents. Please feel free to use these "facts" as they're about as true as the hogwash you're regurgitating in here.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:27 PM EST
    "The slow resonse to the poorest neighborhoods was apparently planned so rich folks can make a huge land grab." I suppose the rich folks all made huge contributions to the Bush campaign. May God be with those determined black citizens of New Orleans, the ones hanging on to their homes, hiding from the rescuers, refusing to evacuate.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Wow, sailor, thanks for the link on Rick Perry, though it's a little embarrassing to me personally; all week I've been talking to liberal friends of mine about Perry, regardless of his ersatz politics, deserving some credit for stepping up in this crisis. Then he goes and blows it with this opportunism. Sad.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    LWW, Sounds like you need to finish dealing with your anger over your wife's passing so you don't take it out on others. Your posts are pure rage with no legitimate basis other than anger at those who don't agree with you. I didn't bring up your wife. You did.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    No one was in charge anywhere. There were hands to do the work, buses to move the people, food and water to sustain life.....but no one led and coordinated the effort. Isn't that why we have FEMA?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Your posts are pure rage with no legitimate basis other than anger at those who don't agree with you. And in that, Che, he sounds very much like Sideshow Paul in La-La Land and several other hardleft commentors, which means he fits in quite nicely around here.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Hey, what happened to Dark Avenger? Did he get banned or is he just on sabbatical?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Hey Che, where is all the Bush-Bashing coming from? Is it really outrage over the slow response of the feds or is it something else? Rage? Don't make me laugh. The left in this country are the ones in a rage, but they don't even know what they're outraged about. All they know is they hate conservatives and any time they get a chance they'll go after them. This may be a chance but I think it should wait until people stop dying down there. RAGE. What a goof! Look at the faces of NOW, NARAL and MOVEON and you'll see some rage. Rage at themselves for being such hypocritical lowlifes.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    LWW--"I think it should wait until people stop dying down there." Thats where we differ. We don't want to sit back, blame the locals and watch people die. We want them to live. We want FEMA to get in there and provide food, water, medical aid, and we wanted them in there a week ago. Go back and read the threads.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    "The left in this country are the ones in a rage, but they don't even know what they're outraged about." Really, now, LLW, are you a psychic mind-reader or something? While I don't really know what people mean when they make some vague reference to "the left," I do know that it's patently obvious that American liberals represent a lot of different perspectives on things, and they even (gasp!) dare to disagree with one another. Unlike the block voting on diaplay with the Congressional GOP, that is. In any case, I know what things I am angry about, politically speaking. While it cannot be put into a soundbite (gasp! no soundbite? but Rush only speaks in soundbites! whatever is a dittohead to do?), I would say that your beloved party's attempt to roll back the clock at least fifty years on civil liberties is pretty offensive. For example.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Posted by Roger at September 8, 2005 11:22 AM For those who dont remember, LWW is to the right of Himmler. Racist, sexist, you name it. Best to ignore him completely.
    Good idea. My only questions is this: Why does Talk Left allow obvious trolls to post here repeatedly? Isn't this forum supposed to be about discussing solutions and not a place to post the right wing talking points of the day?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    What are the Governors and Mayors jobs if not to take care of local problems? Aren't they supposed to be doing SOMETHING? Is it ALL the federal Gov'ts responsiblity?
    The mayors and governors were supposed to be getting money from the feds in order to shore up the levees. But all that money had to go to pay for tax cuts to the billionaires and to make us safe from Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.
    I don't hear anyone from MS or AL bellyaching about the situation the way LA is bellyaching.
    That's because 1.) only a fraction of the number of people died there 2.) you aren't listening 3.) you can't hear with your head so far up your ---
    Also, the unsubstantiated racial claims I supposedly made? What is unsubstantiated? Please enlighten me on where I was wrong.
    Quick gimme the racial breakdown of the National Guard and compare it to the racial make-up of the larger population. Then find the sources of your stories about the rescue workers being shot at. Then report back. There are a lot of stories out there. Here's one for you to read.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Once again the rw has no arguments except unsubstantiated personal attacks. BTW, the articles I linked to that were via commondreams - and were originally from the Wall St Urinal and Reuters. I made assertions based on facts, I'm sure that it is a coincidence that every disaster the US has experienced under gwb, be it natural, self-induced or man made, is profited by the largest of bushco's campaign contributors. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    L13, I asked JM why LWW was allowed here some time back, after he made a bunch of anti-semetic comments. Apparently, LWW is a retired firefighter, whose wife (at the time) was dying of a terrible, wasting disease. Like most people, LWW is not one-dimensional. On the one hand, he is an awful person, on the other, he led a heroic life, and cared for his wife throughout her illness. Pity won out, as it often does with us defense types. For the rest here- do you now see my point about what you get for trying to engage with this man?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Yeah, I see your point. I figured he woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning and figured a good way to make himself feel better would be to get online and stir up some trouble at the liberal blog. He really does look like an ignorant a**, though, and maybe his racist remarks might serve to awaken others with the same leanings who read his posts, but I doubt it. Prejudice runs deep.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    DA, you are planning, guiltlessly, to be involved in a personally profitable and beneficial business transaction?! There's hope for you yet...

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Hahaha... Cheney was bsing his way thru an press op on CNN and someone told him to go f*** himself. Justice.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    "someone told him to go f*** himself. " That is so funny! Who said it? Do you know? I can just hear Bill O'Reilly's talking points tonight. "He's the Vice President of the United States. I don't care how angry you are at him. Come on guys! You don't use language like that in front of the Vice President of the United States. Have some dignity." I remember Dick Cheney getting caught on tape hurling the exact same phrase at Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont. Justice or Karma?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Just someone off-camera. You couldn't see who it was. There were sounds of his being hustled away and he said it again.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Lww on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    For leftwing shills you seem to know alot about what Rush "fatso" Limbaugh and Bill "talk dirty to me" Oreilly have to say. Warmonger cowards the both of them. Then again it's understandable. If you go back to March,2003 and look at the anti-war sentiment in here (when it counted) there was barely a peep out you people. You held your collective breaths hoping for a war, so you could have your war and protest too.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    You held your collective breaths hoping for a war, so you could have your war and protest too.
    If we needed anymore proof that this poster is off his meds, we have it. Sorry, the left doesn't kill 2000 American soldiers just to make a political point. Neither does the right. Only the Neo_Con inspired Busheveks would drag our nation so low.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Posted by desertswine at September 8, 2005 02:10 PM Just someone off-camera. You couldn't see who it was. There were sounds of his being hustled away and he said it again.
    I saw the video clip of this from over at Crooks & Liars. Hilarious! And Cheney looked like it rattled him, too. He deserved it. Now I am just wondering what prison the heckler will be taken to for interrogation . . .

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    I saw it, too. Cheney doesn't look very healthy. He's all puffed up and red faced. Unless it's my tv. As much as I hate what he's done to my country, I wish he'd retire, now, and look after his health, and reflect a little and make amends for the errors of his evil ways.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Posted by Roger at September 8, 2005 01:00 PM L13, I asked JM why LWW was allowed here some time back, after he made a bunch of anti-semetic comments.
    I’m surprised that he is allowed back on here, then. But I know that sometimes moderators will allow certain obvious trolls to post so long as they keep it on a certain level. That is to be expected. And so far, this one seems just to be a simple kook. Maybe he needs a place to go for grief therapy or to learn anger management. I suggest this link: Caring Connections

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    yes, we all kept quiet thru March 2003 and we all supported the war Like this:
    I think it is a shame that ,George Bush is taking vacation's while our boys and girls are dying in that God forsaken place called .iraq. I wish,the Bush had to go replace just one of our sons.
    HOW MUCH HAS THIS WAR COST THE AMERICAN PUBLIC and the others so far??? DON'T YOU THINK THAT MONEY WOULD BE BETTER SPENT ON HELPING OTHERS IN YOUR COUNTRY or the world.
    Operation Enhance Bush's Manhood must be go forward at all costs.
    The WaPo being the media whores they are for bush and this war edited out the most damning remarks from the story: ""If that means there will be a lot of casualties, then there will be a lot of casualties," said the official, who spoke on condition that he not be named.
    All from comments on TL in March of 2003.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    Hahaha... Cheney was bsing his way thru an press op on CNN and someone told him to go f*** himself. Justice.
    Comedy. Too bad he's gonna have the guy who said it shot.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    From the "Spinning Katrina" Thread: Concerning the incident in which someone told Cheney to "Go Cheney Himself" earlier today, we just had this pass on CNN: Cafferty: The vice-president said that was the first time he heard it. Didn't he utter the same phrase to Senator Patrick Leahy on the floor of the United States Senate? Blitzer: Yes. Cafferty: So it wasn't the first time he heard it. Blitzer [carrying water]: The first time he heard it in the context of this trip. Cafferty: You know what, I bet it's not the last. I bet it's not either.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:29 PM EST
    Now it's Ophelia, how many hurricanes do we have before global warming becomes "real"?

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:29 PM EST
    Adept, LOL. I missed the clip. I hope Crooks and Liars gets it.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:29 PM EST
    Posted by gentlyweepingguitar: "Cheney doesn't look very healthy. He's all puffed up and red faced." Avert Your Eyes from the Rotting of a Vice President...If You Can

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:29 PM EST
    "Too bad he's gonna have the guy who said it shot." What a mind chilling thought. Do you really think Cheney is going to order this guy shot? Joke won't be so funny, anymore, will it? Well, if Cheney does have this guy shot, in my opinion this guy dies a hero. And may I add from the bottom of my heart-- Go f**k yourself Cheney! Go f**k yourself, Cheney! Go f**k yourself Cheney!

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:30 PM EST
    Gun control isn't a pet issue here, but I thought this was interesting. NO is violating the LA constitution by confiscating firearms, but not from private security guards. (I know I get yelled at when I link to Volokh, oh well)

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:30 PM EST
    Gun Control is a major issue for me. I just gave up on it when Bush became elected for his second term. I thought I was the only person alive on Earth who wanted to go through life without a gun in my house. I was extremely disturbed to learn that the snipers in New Orleans were carrying AK47's they had stolen from gun shops on the flodded streets. I'm pleased to hear that law enforcement is confiscating all of them.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:30 PM EST
    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:30 PM EST
    Roger - Global warming?
    Katrina has nothing to do with global warming. Nothing. It has everything to do with the immense forces of nature that have been unleashed many, many times before and the inability of humans, even the most brilliant engineers, to tame these forces. Giant hurricanes are rare, but they are not new. And they are not increasing. To the contrary. Just go to the website of the National Hurricane Center and check out a table that lists hurricanes by category and decade. The peak for major hurricanes (categories 3,4,5) came in the decades of the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s, when such storms averaged 9 per decade. In the 1960s, there were 6 such storms; in the 1970s, 4; in the 1980s, 5; in the 1990s, 5; and for 2001-04, there were 3. Category 4 and 5 storms were also more prevalent in the past than they are now. As for Category 5 storms, there have been only three since the 1850s: in the decades of the 1930s, 1960s and 1990s.
    Link You might also like to read Hurricane Kyoto on Daily Demarche. Scroll down to the 9/26 entry.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:30 PM EST
    Dear PPJ-- You may fight fight fight against Global Warming because enough cancer patients haven't been diagnosed and proven that the cause was a direct effect of global warming. So it hasn't been proven, but for God's sake haven't you noticed what has been happening in our world, our parks, lakes, and Supermarkets? Do you really believe that the last 50 years haven't been toxically hazardous to our environment? Do you? Look around. And if you don't notice any differences, go ahead fight fight fight to prove that no global warming is threatening our environment. Then go buy a can of StarKist Tuna and eat it.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:30 PM EST
    Jim, Go to your first link. Look to the left for the article about convergence in global warming data. Click on that. The jury seems to still be out, but it is hard to convince me that a cat 5 is incredibly rare after I've been through one (Andrew). Charlie was small, but a pain in the a$$. Being just one of three in a row was an even bigger pain. I know, ancedotal evidence and all, but it's my anctodotes.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:30 PM EST
    Jim, As to you second link, 9/26? I did see a post about Kyoto, but I actually wasn't refering to that, or to global warming being the US's fault, ever breathed Bangkok air? We're not the only pollutors on earth

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:30 PM EST
    jeebus, techcentral!?
    James K. Glassman is a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and host of TechCentralStation
    Besides, gassman only has a BA ... in government. WTF would he know about climatology. what a maroon! Everyone not paid by the oil industry or bushco payroll accepts global warming was a fact and more frequent and stronger hurricanes are inherent in the model. While looking at historical records, the atmospheric physicist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology found that the total power released by storms had drastically increased -- more than doubling in the Atlantic Ocean in the past 30 years. The evidence was so overwhelming that he could not stand by his earlier statements. BTW, fema just reneged on the debit cards, but they'll send a check to you home.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:30 PM EST
    As for Category 5 storms, there have been only three since the 1850s: in the decades of the 1930s, 1960s and 1990s.
    PPJ...there have been 2 catagory 5s in less than a year. Ivan in September 2004 and Katrina in August 2005. In addition, there were two catagory 4 storms in July 2005, one of which was almost a cat 5. That was totally unprecedented in 150 years of record keeping. The 1995-2005 hurricane seasons have combined for the most active 10 year period on record!

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    sailor - Let us face the facts. If the source is not a Leftie source, you won't accept it. Ernie - Read the link. It details out how many storms, etc. If you don't wanna believe, then don't. But you might, if it is wrong, post a link to one that is correct. That is if you're not BSing us, eh? BTW - Wasn't Katrina a Cat 4 when it came ashore? At least that is what USA Today said on 8/28. And wasn't Ivan a Cat 3? At least that's what Wikipedia says:
    Ivan then moved into the eastern Gulf of Mexico and weakened to a strong Category 3 storm. It continued on a track towards the north-northwest, making landfall in the U.S. near Gulf Shores, Alabama. After landfall, Ivan dropped heavy rains on the Southeastern United States, turned east, and then later looped south and through Florida
    Roger - Come on. Read the Daily Demarche's 9/26 post in full. You will love it. You too Ernie. That is if the evil Rove has had the Keeper of Black Pojects drop a piece of sky on your head. But since he is undoubtedly tired from ginning up Katrinia, I guess you are safe.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    Jim, Demarche only goes back to 11/04. Today is 9/9. I am confused

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    Roger - That's 9/6/05. Try it. Its funny.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    DA - All the post said was here's the number, and the numbers don't support the contention. Go argue with the numbers.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    Jim, Go to the link by the article that you first mentioned. It refutes the story, in the same publication

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    Of course, the Wall St Urinal, the FEMA site, NOAA, whitehouse.gov and Reuters are all leftwing sites. Next!

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    Posted by justpaul: "Paul in La-La Land and several other hardleft commentors" I'm not 'hardleft.' I'm not a leftist at all. • I'm a liberal Democrat. • I've voted in every state and federal election available to me in my adult life (*unlike Bush, Rove, Cheney...). • I support the Constitution (your boy Bush doesn't) • I have never been accused of a crime (Bush has been accused of a great many, and clearly guilty of a great many as well). Leftists generally are not Democrats. Your boy Bush is much more of a WINGER than I will ever be. *please make a note of it*

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    Sailor-
    “Everyone not paid by the oil industry or bushco payroll accepts global warming was a fact and more frequent and stronger hurricanes are inherent in the model.”
    You are absolutely and unequivocally full of crap. I challenge you to find one peer reviewed manuscript, just one, which shows that mean global temperatures have influenced hurricane frequency and strength. If you had actually read Emanuel et al. Nature paper you would know they explicitly avoid any causal language throughout their analysis; instead saving it for a teaser in the abstract. Frankly I don’t know how that passed review. And they certainly don’t claim, as you would have us believe, that there has been a net increase in frequency. The first few sentences say there is no increase in frequency. If you are interested in what the consensus is on frequency trends see this and the references therein. Following Mr. Emanuel’s publication in Nature I scoured the literature to see what the consensus was among his peers. Mr. Emanuel is alone; his seemingly timid language of ‘a suggestive’ correlation is frankly bold in relation to his colleagues work. The consensus is that there is, as yet, no evidence that increased mean global temperatures will result in greater intensity or frequency. I have found a single group running fluid dynamics simulations with results that suggest an increase in hurricane intensity of less than 5% over the next 80 years under the direst warming model. And as far as I know their results are unpublished, that is they haven’t passed peer review. Computer modeling, and this applies equally to the warming models, should be considered imprecise and dodgy, hardly fact. Anyway, consensus or no, you should be a great deal more skeptical of published results. Poor statistical understanding, small field, prevailing field bias, and so forth skew results horribly. Here is a convincing treatment concluding that most published results are false. I don’t know if mean global temperatures will increase and if they do will result in more or more powerful hurricanes. I remain agnostic.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    "increase in hurricane intensity of less than 5% over the next 80 years under the direst warming model."
    I got these numbers from the NOAA testimony carried by CSPAN. You can find the fluid dynamics group here as well as their recent publication (their results were published) here, which contain all the relevant numbers and details.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    pw, you aren't a libertarian, you are just a bushshill, did you not see the sidebar of your link!?
    The strongest hurricanes in the present climate may be upstaged by even more intense hurricanes over the next century as the earth's climate is warmed by increasing levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Although we cannot say at present whether more or fewer hurricane will occur in the future with global warming, the hurricanes that do occur near the end of the 21st century are expected to be stronger and have significantly more intense rainfall than under present day climate conditions.
    bushco represses science, (see the EPA, the Forrest Service and the FDA.) The above terms were couched in the most innocuous terms possible, and they are still damning!

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    Sailor-
    “pw, you aren't a libertarian, you are just a bushshill, did you not see the sidebar of your link!?”
    Of couse I did; I linked it. I’m also ~3/4 through the manuscript I linked; it’s a remarkable piece of work. Have you bothered to read it? I suppose it is lost on such a desperate ideologue, but I am more than willing to introduce any reasonable information into a debate.
    “The above terms were couched in the most innocuous terms possible, and they are still damning!”
    You do realize that this is theory and isn’t supported by experiment (which really is as close to fact as science gets, you did say fact?). It does not show that hurricanes have increased in intensity or that they are more frequent, which I gather is your claim. So, again I issue my challenge; find one peer reviewed manuscript which support either an increase in frequency or and increase in magnitude contributable to increased mean global temperatures. Not calculation or theory; a solid statistical analysis, something that supports these histrionics. I provided a link to a good analysis of hurricane frequency over the last century, one that contained a representative review of the literature. If, as I gather you believe, there is a measurable increase in intensity or frequency it should be trivial to find. But sure, insults are easier; why wouldn’t I expect more of the same. Show us who’s the shill.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    pig-great argument to f**k conservation. Hummers for all. Gail Norton was the right choice after all. Burn baby burn. Pigs wiggling in sh*t.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    pigwiggle...TWO questions for you: 1. What was the most active ten year period in the past 150 years (at least) of Atlantic hurricanes? 2. What was the warmest 10 year period in the last 150 years (at least) of global mean temperatures? Hint: the answer is the same 10 year period. Another hint: it's the last ten years!

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:35 PM EST
    The people who attack the facts, are also busy attacking science. And they want PROFIT to wag the dog of science. The people who blame everyone but themselves, are also in control of much of the media, via inducements and threats. Both the inducements and the threats are ILLEGAL, but that doesn't worry Bush-backers. They don't mind the mafia, as long as their trash is getting hauled. The people who support this kind of corruption pretend they are facts-based, but, pigwiggle, your credibility isn't strong enough to support your Princess and the Pea airs.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:35 PM EST
    PW, I tend to agree that the science is not there yet, either way, but it is suggestive. With the suggestive nature of the evidence, wouldnt you agree that conservation is more prudent? We are talking about permanent changes.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:35 PM EST
    Squeaky-
    “pig-great argument to f**k conservation.”
    There is a very clear argument for conservation without using uncertain evidence to argue some doomsday scenario. Ernesto-
    “pigwiggle.. 1. What was the most active ten year …2. What was the warmest 10 year period … it's the last ten years!”
    I could have made the same argument during the last calm in the hurricane cycle to support the opposite claim. Hurricane frequency is a cyclic phenomenon, and no one has been able to show a statistically significant correlation between mean global temperatures and hurricane frequency. There are a number of folks trying to correlate intensity and global temperatures, but there is hardly a consensus. Roger-
    “With the suggestive nature of the evidence, wouldnt you agree that conservation is more prudent?”
    It depends on what ‘conservation’ means; I’ll assume we are talking about limiting CO2 emissions. Any policy should (in the least) be based on cost/benefit. Kyoto called for something like a 45% average reduction over the next 5 years (if I recall correctly). The economic cost is very large. Given the track record of the warming models over the last decade, that is, their inability to forecast current temperatures (all accepted models forecast higher mean temps) I don’t see a benefit. When the climate modeling community gets their collective act together and can accurately model past and current temperature trends accurately I’ll be more than happy to concede restrictions on any kind of emissions.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:35 PM EST
    Actually, the breakdown of the short term climate modeling is one of the arguments backing up global warming. The trends are occuring at an accelrated rate due to global waming and the current short term models are no longer accurate. When the delta t component is expanded the model, and trends, become more accurate. Global warming has been proved enough that we can't take a chance on ignoring it. It isn't a gentle slope either, it is a multi fulcrumed pendulum. Simple analogy: If you keep pumping energy into a closed system (blowing up a baloon) it has a constant coefficent (the baloon gets bigger at a steady rate) until the system can't absorb any more energy, and then the model enters a chaotic regime (the baloon bursts.) Islands are being swallowed, hurricanes are stronger and more frequent, idebergs and glaciers are melting. All predicted by the current best model for global warming. Price if we're wrong = $$ Price if we're right = death

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    PW- I mentioned on another thread that I am not a huge fan of the Kyoto mechanism, at the same time, do we really need Hummers getting a pass on emissions because they are classed as trucks? There has to be a happy medium in there somewhere, one that moderately lowers pollution at a moderate cost.

    Re: Thursday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    Sailor-
    “The trends are occuring at an accelrated rate due to global waming and the current short term models are no longer accurate.”
    Actually, last decade's climate models failed in that they predicted a greater warming than that measured. It is my understanding (I’m only marginally familiar with the models) that some have been refined by including sulfate aerosols, which tame the warming trend, while some have been reparameterized to reproduce the lower observed rate.
    Price if we're wrong = $$ Price if we're right = death
    We shouldn’t make policy based on speculation and fear. Anyway, assuming we implement Kyoto and we are wrong, the effect on the economy could be dramatic with no benefit. The folks that bear the brunt of a crappy economy are those living on the margin. But assuming the models are correct, we really have no idea what will happen. Perhaps catastrophe, or perhaps the sulfate aerosol models aren’t ad hoc; we’ll give large tax incentives to folks producing sulfur dioxide and dimethyl sulfoxide (but only in the right places). If someone comes up with a solid predictive model you have my attention. Roger-
    “There has to be a happy medium in there somewhere, one that moderately lowers pollution at a moderate cost.”
    It might surprise folks, but I think a legitimate use of government is protecting the environment. I have no problem charging someone for damaging emissions; irrespective of the market effect.