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Wednesday Open Thread

It's a travel day for me which means another open thread for you. Here's what I read in the past hour or two. I'll be back to regular blogging tonight.

More from around the blogosphere:

  • Sentencing Law and Policy covers the case of a juvenile sentenced to 30 years for killing his grandparents when he was 12.
  • White Collar Crime Prof Blog on the new Government Accountability Office Report. Shorter version: Looks Like the Government Needs Some Corporate Accountability
  • Crooks and Liars has the Chris Dodd video from Countdown discussing the FISA victory.
  • Kevin Drum says its time for a Justice Department official named Brian Roehrkasse, who heads the DOJ's Office of Public Affairs to leave the building.
< GOP Stands With Bush On Iraq: Pelosi Surprised | Triangulation Redux: Would Obama Be The 1992 Bill Clinton? And Is That What We Need Now? >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Siegelman: election stolen (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Lora on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 08:49:56 AM EST
    Check out this link.  Ex-Alabama governor Siegelman thinks his election was stolen by the GOP: Siegelman Speaks!

    From your link (1.00 / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 12:24:26 PM EST
    As he himself makes clear, Siegelman's ordeal began back in 2000, when he came out early on, and publicly, against the presidential bid of his fellow governor, George W. Bush, and backed Al Gore instead. It was a move that Karl Rove never did forget, and never would forgive, says Siegelman.

    Now your link doesn't say, but Siegleman's a Democrat.

    Can you tell me why any Demo Governor would expect a Repub governor to expect support from him?

    Or vice versa??

    That's just plain dumb. If you can't come up with some better than that it doesn't pass the laugh test.

    Parent

    Harvest of Shame... (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by desertswine on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 03:32:51 PM EST
    I find it remarkable that (1.50 / 2) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 04:38:33 PM EST
    you actually provided this information that shows you why illegal aliens should be stopped at the border.

    Thank you for showing what the human cost of the Open Borders people really is.

    Parent

    You're welcome... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by desertswine on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 11:25:10 PM EST
    and to return the compliment; the role of house jackass, which you seem to have carved out for yourself, suits you very well.

    Parent
    hehe (1.00 / 1) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:35:08 AM EST
    I doubt you would qualify as a jackass. An animal that is known for its hard work and stubborn actions when pushed too far.

    No, I think you are more of a pack animal. One that has to hunt with the pack and have the approval of the pack. Unable to think or take actions by itself it is always dependent on following the others.

    Parent

    Projecting again.... Again. (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:48:43 AM EST
    Now go peddle your nonsense to those dumb enough to buy it. If you can find one.

    Parent
    uhm (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Jen M on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 03:00:26 PM EST
    humans are pack animals.

    Always have been.

    Parent

    hehe (1.00 / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 11:23:38 AM EST
    To be more serious, civilization has been a long climb from "hunter gathers" to individuals that think for themselves and are not very concerned about what others think.

    If that makes me a Jackass in desertswine's opinion, he is welcome to it. At least I don't have to read MoveOn or Kos to find what I can say without fear of being attacked.

    Why don't you ask yourself if you have an obligation to do what is necessary, within your power, to protect your fellow citizens?

    I'd be interested in your answer.

    Parent

    I asked (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by Jen M on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:26:38 PM EST
    and followed up.

    Parent
    In case you haven't read (1.00 / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 08:43:22 PM EST
    it is called an "open thread."

    Hello?? Are you there? Care to make a stab at answering the question??

    Parent

    Wow... (none / 0) (#81)
    by desertswine on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 05:12:48 PM EST
    you are really polite. :)

    Parent
    How insulting (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by Jgarza on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:35:12 AM EST
    to refer to someone as an illegal.  if someone is caught speeding they are driving illegally, you don't call them an illegal.

    This is just a ridiculous propaganda war to dehumanize people. I find it sick and pathetic.

    Parent

    Nonsense and you know it (1.00 / 1) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:42:33 AM EST
    Illegal is a description of a person. Just as professional baseball player is.

    Now go peddle your nonsense to those dumb enough to buy it.

    Parent

    Projecting again.... (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:47:28 AM EST
    Now go peddle your nonsense to those dumb enough to buy it. If you can find one.

    Parent
    Mack shows up (1.00 / 1) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:52:49 AM EST
    where's Muff??

    Or is it Curl and Moe?

    Now. Can you refute my point that illegal alien is an accurate description?

    Why of course not. Why do I even ask??

    sigh...

    Parent

    That's the problem (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by glanton on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 01:21:13 PM EST
    Illegal is a description of a person

    It attaches to the person instead of the illegal action.  Obviously it dehumanizes people when you say that they are illegal.  As does 90% of the discourses you hear about illegal immigration these days.  

    Your baseball example is really, really stupid.

    Parent

    And your claim is really stupid. (1.00 / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 01:38:48 PM EST
    Now. See? We can both do middle school insults.

    Illegal alien describes a person who is an alien and is in the country illegally.

    Same as professional baseball player attaches to the person.

    If the person doesn't want to be so described, they can go to ICE and get a free ride home.

    Parent

    Praytell (5.00 / 0) (#35)
    by glanton on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 01:59:32 PM EST
    In your esteemed estimation, why don't we call an American citizen who has broken a law an "illegal"?

    And then of course there's the perfectly innocent term "alien."  Ask any fifth grader (or Dennis Kucinich) what is an alien, and they will in their own way show they understand it operates in contrast to "human."  

    I would guess it surprises nobody around here that you, who so loves canned Talking Points, fail to understand how language can dehumanize.  

    Especially lost on you is the concept that when we dehumanize Others, through words or actions, we abuse our own humanity in the process.

    No.  You wouldn't understand that.  Seeing as how you salute torture and all.

    Parent

    oh (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by Jen M on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 02:59:22 PM EST
    he understood it well enough when I did it to him.

    Just not when its done to anyone but him.

    Parent

    Ahhh (5.00 / 0) (#40)
    by glanton on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 03:05:27 PM EST
    I forgot about your instructive pronoun usage.

    But the question is, did it truly understand?    

    Seems more likely, it merely sensed it was being insulted and so went into "insulted" mode.

    Parent

    Why?? (1.00 / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 11:10:35 AM EST
    Maybe because he is called a criminal??

    Dehumanize others?? Nonsense. Illegal alien is a simple declarative description.

    And while I am not surprised at your claim about what Kucinich would say, I am disappointed if you are correct about the fifth graders... but seeing what the state of US public schools is I have to agree.

    Of course if you think 2 + 2 is 5, the answer remains 4, no matter how loudly you claim to be right.

    From the dictionary:

    Alien

    a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization (distinguished from citizen).  

    1. a foreigner.  
    2. a person who has been estranged or excluded.  
    3. a creature from outer space; extraterrestrial.  
    -adjective 5. residing under a government or in a country other than that of one's birth without having or obtaining the status of citizenship there.  

    BTW - Your torture claim is despicable and something you cannot prove. But then that doesn't bother you. I place you in the same category I do squeaky who wrote that he needed no facts.

    Parent

    You continue to lower expectations (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by glanton on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:04:16 PM EST
    "Maybe because he is called a criminal??"

    Indeed, oh master of the banal, they are "called" criminals.  And there is an important difference in referring to a person as a "criminal" and referring to them as "illegal."

    Crimes, not people, are "illegal."   Sorry you don't see it.

    As for your dictionary reference, you don't need it.  We all know it is conventional to refer to these human beings as "aliens."  No surprise that you cannot grasp there is a problem with a usage that collapses "a creature from outer space" within the same rubric as a "foreigner" or a "noncitizen."  

    BTW:  If you don't want to be known as a saluter of torture, then all you have to do is recant your salutation of torture.  That would involve giving up the euphemisms, dropping the whole "but what they do is worse" yammering, and especially letting go of your little ticking time bomb posture.

    Parent

    No (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 01:51:25 PM EST
    It is usual to call them illegal aliens if they entered illegally.

    If they are here legally then they are "aliens."

    Are you really so slow??

    And if you don't want to be known as a smearer of squeaky's stature then all you have to do is quit making up despicable things. Here. Let me again point out what I have said time and again.

    I am against torture. I do not believe waterboarding is torture. You are welcome to disagree, but do not make things up by saying that I am for torture. And people who do that are liars. Note. I am not calling you a liar because I am hopeful you have merely failed to read.

    I ALSO KNOW that there may be cases in which it is moral and proper to do whatever is necessary to obtain information that will save American lives.
    You may make whatever you want with that, but I caution you make sure you don't take it out of context.

    Parent

    We know what "they are called" (5.00 / 0) (#63)
    by glanton on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:29:35 PM EST
    You're being obtuse, here: I dont really see what you think you're proving.  Nobody ius disupting that people who are here illegally are called "illegals" and/or "illegal aliens."   At stake is the terminology itself, what it does.

    Personally, since we're talking about human beings and all, I think we can do better than using a word that also means "creatures from Outer Space."

    But hey, then again, unlike you I don't salute torture.  Speaking of:

    I am against torture. I do not believe waterboarding is torture. You are welcome to disagree

    Your salutation of torture continues.  But thanks for inviting me to "disagree" on what to call it.  

    As for your canard at the end, thanks, but really, there's no need to invite us to "make whatever [we] want of it."  We know it very well.  

    That's why them call 'em Talking Points, ya know.  

    Your salutation of torture continues.  


    Parent

    Your continual false charges (1.00 / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 03:52:44 PM EST
    displays your inability to make a logical argument.

    You can do nothing but try to insult.

    That doesn't work because I understand who you are. And I don't care what you think about me.

    But please continue. Your fabrications are plain to see  and only serve to make my point.

    The pity is this. You probably think of yourself as some superior intellectual sent here to instruct us.

    hehe

    Parent

    "I don't care what you think about me" (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by glanton on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 04:04:59 PM EST
    Really?  And here I was thinking you cared.

    Spin away, baby.  In response all one has to do is point to your posts.

    Look, who doesn't say "I'm against torture"?  

    Of course you want to say that, to think that.  Of course you want to use euphemisms.  And of course you want to keep muttering the ticking time bomb rosary.

    None of which removes the core truth that you salute torture.  

    Parent

    I aint your "baby" (1.00 / 0) (#94)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:15:56 AM EST
    and if you want to start tossing those around I can share a few with you. Your choice.

    ... and I don't have to spin. Over the past two weeks I have had several detailed comments re the subject, mostly with syinco who can make reasoned arguments... I don't think we agreed except on a few points, but it was fun to discuss something with an intelligent person. In your case, here is one your comments in which you show your feelings towards your fellow citizens.

    A thinking man's cartoon (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 15, 2007 at 10:22:19 PM EST

    No doubt.
    From now on, all they have to do is say "9/11", and anything's a go with the frightened little lemmings.  

    Just remember.  You are one who salutes torture.  

    Say goodnight Glanton (1.00 / 2) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 09:12:47 AM EST

    Yeah, who would want to protect all those little Eichmans???
    They deserve it, right??

    And if they have to die to make you feel good about your "ethics," so what. Right??

    Tell me, Glanton. What is ethical about not scaring some terrorist for 35 seconds and obtaining information to prevent an attack?

    I have asked that torture be defined. I have seen references to "laws" that say torture is illegal, but no definition. Finally, Repack Rider came to the front and wrote:

    Define torture. (1.00 / 2) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:31:16 PM EST

    No problem (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:33:31 PM EST
    Anything you would not want me to do to you is torture.

    I think you accept that as your own definition. Am I wrong??

    Parent

    "Am I wrong"? (5.00 / 0) (#96)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 11:01:37 AM EST
    What a delightful question coming from you, every bit as entertaining as when O'Reilly asks it.

    Jen condenses it very well on this very thread: you and others want a ",aundry list" of things that constitute torture, so that you can get something that's not on the list and use that to torture.

    Your salutation of torture continues.

    But still and again, it's always entertaining to watch you contort in efforts to salute and deny at the same time. More amusing still is your own pretension that you are trying to have rational disucssion even as you keep spewing the same exact Talking Points time and time again.

    Parent

    The problem you have (1.00 / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 11:11:37 AM EST
    is that I speak facts.

    Parent
    True (5.00 / 0) (#53)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:21:03 PM EST
    But they are mostly false facts.

    Parent
    Falese facts? (1.00 / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 01:57:08 PM EST
    You mean like you??


    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM
    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.


    Parent
    And this? (1.00 / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:02:05 PM EST
    ppj does as ppj does (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 09:58:35 PM EST

    (I had writtem)So because Rove is doing wrong, it is okay for you to do wrong?

    You replied) I have no problem with alleging that Rove's grandparents were Nazi's. Even if they were not, he uses Goebbels' propaganda techniques as a bible and may as well be a born and bred Nazi.



    Parent
    More False Facts From PPJ (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:35:05 PM EST
    THe master of bs. Self proclaimed acolyte of Rove although got failing grades.

    Another recent out of context false fact by ppj regarding immigration:

    Because there are 13,000,000 of them in the US.

    Because they are costing US taxpayers hard earned dollars.

    Because they have demonstrated no loyalty to thus country

    N

    ope, I prefer to use the Udall Report, thoughtfully provided to us by a sometimes blogger and open border dude, tnthorpe
    .
    .

    Typically you leave out the key point of the Udall report:

    Immigrants Add Nearly $1 Billion Annually to Arizona's Economy
    A report by the Udall Center for Studies in Public Policy at The University of Arizona estimates that immigrants in Arizona generate more than three dollars in taxes for every two dollars they incur for government services, such as education, health care and law enforcement, for a net economic gain approaching one billion dollars.

    link

    You regularly smear yourself. Pointing out your mendacity is hardly a smear.

    Parent

    I know you can't but (1.00 / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 03:44:31 PM EST
    try to hold two thoughts in your mind at the same time.

    1. Jobs exist separately from the nationality of the work force.

    2. Therefore the illegal aliens bring nothing to the table because the jobs would be taken by legal workers.

    They add nothing to the "state" that would not be there if they had not shown up.

    That the proponents of illegal aliens misstate things is not news.

    Parent

    More BS (5.00 / 0) (#75)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 04:15:53 PM EST
    If the undocumented workers are stealing jobs and hurting the economy why is Arizona's unemployment rate lower than the national average?

    You are spreading false facts. It is clear that immigrants, both documented and undocumented are adding big time to the US economy.

    Immigrants Add Nearly $1 Billion Annually to Arizona's Economy


    Parent

    You still can't grasp the concept (1.00 / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 08:41:20 PM EST
    can you?? Or is it that you do but won't admit it.

    Let's try this again.

    The jobs exist totally and separately from the worker.

    If the illegal alien didn't exist they would be filled by legal workers and whatever "boost" that gives the economy would exist.

    For the illegal workers to contribute to the economy they must add NEW jobs that wouldn't exist if they weren't here.

    Otherwise they are just slicing the same pie as the legal employees

    Parent

    I wonder how much they would add if they (none / 0) (#85)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 08:10:17 PM EST
    were here legally.

    Parent
    Read The Link (5.00 / 0) (#88)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 08:39:15 PM EST
    Blindboy

    Parent
    The answer, of course, (none / 0) (#91)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 09:15:34 PM EST
    is that if they were here legally, they'd add more to the economy. Head in the sand boy.

    Parent
    If the illegal immigrants weren't here would we lose their "contribution" to our economy?

    Answer: No. In fact, since the work they do would then be done by citizens/legal immigrants, who would be paid more, and would therefor spend more, they would contribute more to our economy.

    Useless boy. Or girl, whatever the case may be.

    Parent

    heh (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:30:54 AM EST
    We have 13,000,000 million plus illegal aliens.

    That, plus the articles studied use of the word "migrant" tells me they were illegal aliens.

    And I find it discouraging that you don't have the common courtesy to help prevent this type of thing from happening by supporting closing the borders and ensuring that the workers are legal and have no fear of reporting such actions.

    Speaking of dictionaries:

    enable

    to make possible or easy

    Let's see if you are smart enough to make the connection.

    Parent

    closing the border and reality (5.00 / 0) (#25)
    by Jgarza on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:40:47 AM EST
    And I find it discouraging that you don't have the common courtesy to help prevent this type of thing from happening by supporting closing the borders and ensuring that the workers are legal and have no fear of reporting such actions.

    Tightening border control does two things.  it means that migrant workers have incentive to stay here, because crossing the border becomes risky.

    The second thing it does, is force those who are trying to cross to attempt ever more dangerous methods, with ever more criminal smugglers.  

    The more illegal you make what people are doing, the more likely they are to be involved with criminals when doing it, and the more unsafe their activitiy becomes.


    Parent

    You wouldn't know reality. (1.00 / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:47:19 AM EST
    The more illegal you make what people are doing

    hehe.... really??? Well I guess we shouldn't have any laws.  Border? We don't need no stinking border..

    You close the border. Stop the flow.

    And then you see what you can do to fix the problems caused by the illegal aliens who are here.

    Parent

    The govt. claimed they.... (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 02:24:54 PM EST
    could close the border to the drug trade...that's working real well:)

    No amount of laws or enforcement can ever keep up the will of the people.  People want to move around to where the getting is good, and people want to get high.  These forces simply cannot be stopped...tis better to accept this truth and deal with it in a reality-based setting.

    Parent

    uh kdog.... (1.00 / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:47:57 PM EST
    His premise is that making things illegal is bad because it endangers the people doing the illegal things...

    An open border obviously endangers the country.

    Bank robbery obviously endangers people.

    So does kidnapping and dozens of other examples.

    I understand you are a libertarian, but everything doesn't relate to your belief that drugs should be legal and people should be able to live where they please.


    Parent

    s/b.... (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 02:30:49 PM EST
    keep up with the will of the people.

    Parent
    This says it all (1.00 / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:40:22 AM EST
    Always fearful of the arrival of La Migra (as the immigration officers are known) and instant deportation, they are compliant and hardworking. There are also hundreds of thousands of migrant children working as hired hands in dangerous conditions on America's farms. They put in 12-hour days for little pay.

    And from the same source you got your march orders from.

    Parent

    Why do you think I support(ed) (1.00 / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:58:07 PM EST
    NAFTA?? I can still hear that giant sucking sound..of course Al Gore, who is so wrong on man made GW was totally wrong about that.

    Now, as I have patiently explained time and again.

    Labor is a commodity. All commodities are priced based on availability. Fewer pickers, higher wages.

    Close the border and wages will go up and working conditions will improve.

    Tell Mexico, and other countries, that we will no longer be the safety valve for their dismal societal failures and unacceptable cultural norms. They will change only when forced.

    As for us white faces invading. Yes. And the Indians did nothing and look what happened to them. ;-)

    BTW - Does your elderly still go off and die by themselves when they can no longer help the tribe??

    As for links to dictionaries.... If you will specify that you are too dumb to use one, or too poor to own one I'll give you directions on how to use one, and where you can find one.


    Parent

    hehe (1.00 / 0) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 08:26:49 PM EST
    Uh.... The name is not the United States of America??

    Gee, and here I thought the Noble Savages lost.

    Who knew??

    ;-)

    And I was, of course, referring to how it was handled in the past. That you do as badly now as us is no plus for you, or us.

    Read "The Contested Plains." And consider the "Flowery Death" used in human sacrifice by the Aztec.

    There wasn't a great deal of difference between the NA's and white man as far as cruelty is concerned. The main difference was in technology... the gun and the horse...and religion.. plus a little thing called "germs" that  the locals had no immunity to...

    The religion was a big plus. It promised a life after death. That was a new concept and kind of removed the motivation the common man had for fighting for the Kings.

    So if you expect me to defend the actions of my so-called ancestors you are again for another surprise. I don't. But no alive today owes anybody anything because of their actions.

    Oh yeah. We can keep the country and our freedom as long was we have enough hard men and women to do the hard things necessary to let the soft Left sleep peacefully at night.

    Parent

    Nonsequitur King strikes again! (5.00 / 0) (#93)
    by Jen M on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 09:03:34 AM EST
       As for us white faces invading. Yes. And the Indians did nothing and look what happened to them. ;-)

    Did nothing? What revisionist history book are you reading?

    Custer's Last Stand, for one. The Battle of Little Big Horn, Bear Butte-Black Hills, Sioux Uprising (or Santee War), Red Cloud's War, Roman Nose's Fight, The Fetterman Massacre. Not to mention raids, taking captives, etc etc.

    and your response was....

    Uh.... The name is not the United States of America??

    lets review:

    You: they did nothing
    Her: list of things they did

    You: price of tea on alpha centauri

    Parent

    To subtle for you Jen? (none / 0) (#107)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 11:42:56 AM EST
    Who won the war? Who established the US?

    etc., etc...

    Gosh

    Parent

    ok (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Jen M on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 12:07:19 PM EST
    lets review:

    You: they did nothing
    Her: list of things they did

    You: price of tea on alpha centauri

    you say "is that too subtle"

    I say: why do turkeys love to gobble blue dots?

    Parent

    Let's read (none / 0) (#112)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 12:23:41 PM EST
    She wrote:

    It's too late to close the borders, as far as I am concerned. You of European heritage already invaded
    .

    I responded.

    As for us white faces invading. Yes. And the Indians did nothing and look what happened to them. ;-)

    She responded.

    Did nothing? What revisionist history book are you reading?

    Custer's Last Stand, for one. The Battle of Little Big Horn, Bear Butte-Black Hills, Sioux Uprising (or Santee War), Red Cloud's War, Roman Nose's Fight, The Fetterman Massacre. Not to mention raids, taking captives, etc etc.

    I responded:


    Uh.... The name is not the United States of America??

    Gee, and here I thought the Noble Savages lost.

    Who knew??

    And you wanna make something about that?

    Take a look. They fought some battles, argued among themselves, some fought with/for the white man, signed worthless treaties...and LOST THE WAR.

    They did NOTHING.

    Hmmm reminds of our current position re illegal aliens.

    Parent

    I get it (none / 0) (#115)
    by Jen M on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 03:29:13 PM EST
    You didn't mean what you typed. Ok.

    Parent
    Actually it was a steal of an old joke (1.00 / 0) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 07:19:06 PM EST
    I had forgotten that the Left has no sense of humor.

    No knowledge of history beyond what they want to believe.

    And the inability to logically go from A to D without B and C.

    Thanks for the refesher course.

    Parent

    too subtle for you Nowonami?? (none / 0) (#108)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 11:45:44 AM EST
    Who won the war? Established the country....

    etc....

    Gosh I grow tired of explaining the obvious.

    Winning battles does not equal winning wars.

    Look at Vietnam for an example.

    Parent

    I know that you are not use to to winning... (none / 0) (#118)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 07:16:09 PM EST
    but that is the objective of all wars.

    At least it is to us non-Leftie people.

    And please, oh Noble Savagette, I have known farmhands. Been one myself. And our ancestors were the ones who won the war.

    Parent

    Oh, really?? (none / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 12:04:04 PM EST
    Let's look. This is what you wrote:

    Wait as long as you want buckwheat (none / 0) (#39)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:29:33 PM EST

    I am under no obligation to do your homework for you. If you own a TV, read a newspaper, it's all there.

    And you complain because I didn't link to a dictionary??? ;-) lol

    And I replied.

    BTW - Calling a black person "Buckwheat" is generally considered to be an insult. I am not black, so it doesn't bother me.

    But you didn't know that. So it is evident that you would have no problem insulting a black person who disagrees with you, based on their race.

    Think about it.

    And confession must be good for the soul..

    when I alluded he was an ignorant farmhand

    And you complain about the term "Noble Savage?"

    hehe.

    Actually if you do a bit of research you will discover that "Noble Savage" was not meant to be insulting. It was, by earlier standards, paternalistic.

    I await for your explanation of how "ignorant farmhand" ever had a non-insult meaning.

    As for "Aztecs," they were at the forefront of the invasion by the europeans...aka Spaniards. Trust me on this.

    Parent

    Do you often forget what you write?? (1.00 / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 07:32:29 PM EST
    It's too late to close the borders, as far as I am concerned. You of European heritage already invaded.

    You didn't say the US. Heck. You didn't say the English or the French...The invasion started in 1492. That's when the borders should have been closed. Instead you guys let us in. Heck. All we wanted was to improve our lives, send some treasure home....

    So insulting someone gives them an opportunity....? To do what??? Ignore the insult?

    tehehe

    And I didn't say it wasn't. I merely described what it had been at one time.

    Really. It is obvious you justt want to be disagreeable. Be my guest.

    Parent

    Hmmmmm (1.00 / 0) (#87)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 08:32:34 PM EST
    Does that mean you actually know how to use a dictionary??

    Okay, being mellow and full of Christmas Cheer (aka two Stoly's...)

    Dictionary  Link

    Now click on the link....

    But really, do you think it necessary to post a link to a dictionary??


    Parent

    Nope (none / 0) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 11:41:16 AM EST
    You remind me of certain characters on old BBS' or on newsgroups. The kind who would pounce on the slightly irregularity, typo, juxtaposition of words to highly insult someone without actually answering the subject.

    You seem to forget that you are the one who complained about me not providing a link. Obviously by not providing a link I assumed that the reader had access and could use a dictionary.

    That is a position of assuming intelligence. And I challenge you to find a comment from me about someone's spelling/typing/writing ability in which they didn't start it first. Mine is shaky at best and has been the target of several of our intrepid commentators.

    As for the rest of your snark. I am a ROF and I will be as nice to you as you are to me.

    Again. Remember you brought the subject up.

    Get a dictionary (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 06:01:00 PM CST
    Migrant doesn't equate to illegal immigrants.

    I responded to Jgarza who argued that closing the border made doing illegal acts more dangerous.

    You responded:

     

    You are kidding, right? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Nowonmai on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 03:32:51 PM CST
    How so very 1800s and early 1900s of you.
    ...
    It's too late to close the borders, as far as I am concerned. You of European heritage already invaded.

    As for your 'dictionary'... what, no links?

    I responded:

    Why do you think I support(ed) (1.00 / 1) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 11:58:07 AM CST
     

    After explaining I did not support NAFTA, I did
    respond to your three snarks. i.e. "1800s...invaded...what no dictionary link"

    Do you think you get free shots with no defense from me? Guess again.

    And I didn't say you were too dumb to use one, I said:

    As for links to dictionaries.... If you will specify that you are too dumb to use one, or too poor to own one I'll give you directions on how to use one, and where you can find one.

    You then went into a hissy fit:

    Rude git (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Nowonmai on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 03:45:23 PM CST

    And when I provided you a link, which you had requested, your hissy fit continued.

    If you are snarky, you will get snark back. I reference my comments to kdog and synico as examples of no snark.

    So if you want politeness and reasoned debate, try not telling me I represent attitudes from the 1800s and 1900 hundreds and complain about the europeans invading. You can also leave out the "suffer fools" and "get out of jail" blather unless you are ready for a snarky reply.

    Your turn.

    Parent

    War on Christmas..... (5.00 / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 10:11:07 AM EST
    The latest front in the War on Christmas is in St. Pete, FLA....Courtesy of Fark....Link

    How dare the local govt. tell you what you can give your friends for Christmas.  If this proposed law was around in Jesus' day, he would have been locked up for sharing wine with his disciples.

    kdog (1.00 / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:15:36 AM EST
    Since my belief is that I would give away all the drugs addicts want, sort of a gene pool improvement program.... I can see the point..

    But on a realistic level his actions are hurting society.

    Parent

    A truly free society..... (5.00 / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 12:02:08 PM EST
    has it's share of problems, no doubt.  

    I just happen to think those problems are minor compared the gravest of all problems...tyranny.  It's the principle Jim...no government has the right to infringe upon our inalienable rights.  I consider the right to give out Christmas presents as the individual sees fit as an inalienable right.  The state has no place in the private affair of gift giving...zip, zilch, zero.  

    Just because, in this case, the recipients of the gifts don't have a home, and alcoholism is a societal problem...it's still no excuse for tyranny.  

    Parent

    You make a good (1.00 / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 11:54:39 AM EST
    point... in theory.

    But, governments do have a duty to try and protect people from doing things that harm them.

    Parent

    I disagree.... (5.00 / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:22:41 PM EST
    the only duty the govt. has, or should have, is to protect our freedom from threats foreign and domestic, and preserve the rule of law.  

    Keeping Joe Blow from drinking too much booze, or even drinking Drain-O, is not amongst their responsibilities...or shouldn't be.

    ..Can you tell I've been reading lots of libertarian literature and listening to Ron Paul speeches?:)  It's really starting to turn me on and make me wonder about the possibilities of a truly free society, as opposed to our current quasi-freedom.

    Parent

    Is the gvt role here (none / 0) (#56)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:53:28 PM EST
    to keep people from drinking and/or giving the gift of drink, or to keep drinking from the city parks?

    If the law is about keeping drinking from the city parks, I'm sure it was passed with the support and consent of the citizens.

    That you might feel in this case that the citizens' desires, as voiced through their gvt, amounts to tyranny, is valid. That others might not feel the same way is also valid.

    Parent

    From the link: (none / 0) (#57)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 12:57:54 PM EST
    Preston is violating a city ordinance by dispensing alcohol in a park.


    Parent
    That's the law.... (none / 0) (#64)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:32:23 PM EST
    the city is using to stop the guy...what their intentions are I really don't know....maybe just to be grinches.

    It just seems wrong to me that I can go to your home...home meaning the place you rest your head ...and give you a bottle to celebrate the holidays, but Mr. Preston can't go to the home of his friends and do the same.

    Parent

    Yep, it's against the law. (none / 0) (#66)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:53:20 PM EST
    He can't dispense alc at city parks, nor can anyone.

    Maybe he wants to give them the present of the thrill of a 150mph ride in his car across the park, ie., in their "home." Oops. Against the law.

    Maybe they are grinches, who knows? If they don't stop others from dispensing alc at the park, and only stop this guy, then I think this guy has a valid issue.

    Otherwise he can petition to get the law changed.

    Parent

    I think..... (none / 0) (#95)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 10:16:56 AM EST
    it's about keeping the citizens from feeding the animals, so to speak. Remember in Vegas when they baned handing out food to the homeless in the park?  If kind-hearted souls show kindness to homeless folks, they won't disappear like some would like.

    I'll never understand how such laws and ordinances are not unconstitutional...must be my very liberal reading of our blessed document.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#97)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 12:52:01 PM EST
    I believe that it is about controlling drunken behavior in the park, which I agree is out of line. The overkill though is typically puritanical here and idiotic.

    The law should be to cite/arrest those who are over the limit drunk and causing a public nuisance.

    Parent

    Torturer's Lyric (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by glanton on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 02:59:13 PM EST
    I am against torture.
    I do not believe [insert torture in question] is torture.
    You are welcome to disagree

    IOW (none / 0) (#68)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 03:08:52 PM EST
    `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

    link

    Parent

    Neither of you two (1.00 / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 03:47:01 PM EST
    can define torture.

    And you worry about Alice?

    tehehe.

    Parent

    you have been given a definition (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Jen M on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 04:29:06 PM EST
    you want a laudry list

    Pretty common among people who want to torture.

    Ask for the list so you can find something not on it and torture people with that.

    Aside from all the various american and international definitions you have ignored:

    Every HUMAN BEING knows what torture is.

    You keep asking.

    It makes me wonder.

    Parent

    You keep saying that (1.00 / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:11:57 PM EST
    but I haven't seen it.

    Parent
    What you don't want to see (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 04:17:38 PM EST
    Is that you salute torture.  

    Why don't you just do what so many others have done, and just admit to yourself that you think this government has the right to torture human beings.

    It'll feel better to admit it.


    Parent

    Your speak nonsense (1.00 / 0) (#111)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 12:09:03 PM EST
    and you do well at it.

    This is the Left's definition.

    D

    efine torture. (1.00 / 2) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:31:16 PM EST

    No problem (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:33:31 PM EST
    Anything you would not want me to do to you is torture.

    Care to modify it????

    Parent

    "Care to Modify It"? (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by glanton on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 12:26:50 PM EST
    Look, torture cannot be specifically codified.  The human imagination, capable of great cruelties and perversities indeed, and will always find a way to get around "laundry lists."  

    Is it possible that you really don't understand this?

    I urge you to actually (gasp!) think about what Jen has pointed out, an activity that will require letting loose the Talking Points and the euphemisms.  

    Try understanding that decent human beings recognize torture, and that this recognition transcends lawyer-speak and banal lists alike.

    Parent

    Ah, so you can not describe it. (1.00 / 1) (#121)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 07:49:53 PM EST
    Ah, so you can not describe it. It becomes then whatever you want it to be. That, as has been shown so often in the past, is a formula for dictatorship.

    With apologies to Lewis Carrol:

    'When I use a word,' Glanton said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

    'The question is,' said ppjakajim, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

    'The question is,' said Glanton 'which is to be master - that's all.'

    Link here because Nowonami has probably never heard of "Alice in Wonderland.


    Parent

    You understood (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by glanton on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 09:56:23 PM EST
    The point.

    And pretend not to.

    That is intellectual dishonesty.

    Nice compliment to your salutation of torture.

    Parent

    Intellectual dishonesty (1.00 / 0) (#125)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 24, 2007 at 11:00:27 PM EST
    is defined as your trick of continually misstating the position of your opponents.

    And to claim that it can't be defined is an insult to the many lawyers we have in the US who could define it down to the "t." But you don't want that because:

    'The question is,' said Glanton 'which is to be master - that's all.'


    Parent
    Insult the Lawyers? (5.00 / 0) (#126)
    by glanton on Tue Dec 25, 2007 at 09:17:33 AM EST
    Heaven Forbid.

    Parent
    Yes. I think it does. (1.00 / 0) (#127)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 25, 2007 at 09:00:12 PM EST
    Yes. I think it does. Lawyers are masters at words, and what they mean. I think they could construct a law that would actually allow people to know and understand rather than:

    No problem (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 11:33:31 PM EST
    Anything you would not want me to do to you is torture.

    You see Glanton, what I would not want to have done to me is to be held captive. So according to RePack, and you since you haven't disagreed, I would have to be let go or the "government agency/organization" would be guilty of torture.

    'When I use a word,' Glanton said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less

    Again, apologies to Lewis Carrol

    Parent

    It ends how it began (5.00 / 0) (#128)
    by glanton on Tue Dec 25, 2007 at 09:19:17 PM EST
    With you saluting torture.

    Parent
    Unlike you, (1.00 / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 04:34:12 PM EST
    I provide links. That way everyone can read the full story.

    The above link is from the NYT. When you read it you can note that:

    Colonel West testified that he did not know whether ''any corroboration'' of a plot was ever found..."
    Simply put, it appears that there was no investigation of any worth.

    What we do know is it this:

    .

    ...there were no further ambushes on U.S. forces in Taji until he (West) was relieved of command on...

    Wikipedia

    So in reality you have nothing to prove that the interrogation did not thwart terrorist attacks. In fact, it appears that they did. Or at least until someone the terrorists feared left. Then they resumed.

    If you think that interrogation does not produce results then you are only looking for what you believe. Interrogation does produce information and the results of all interrogation can, and is, vetted for accuracy. The problem is that vetting takes time, which is why the CIA has limited waterboarding to the two cases discussed in the ABC interview.

    Link 1 ABC transcript.

    Link 2 ABC transcript.

    In them you will discover that the information yielded was accurate and allowed the stopping of numerous attacks.

    I tell you all of this knowing that my doing so is like telling a teenager something that is friends disagree with.

    In this case Col West was fined $5000 and allowed to retire as a Col upon completion of his 20 years. That shows the weakness of the Army's case.

    That is the Army's loss. He is a fine man and was an officer's officer. Read what those who served under him said.

    So that you don't misunderstand my feelings, if I was in a similar position as West I would have done the same thing.

    Now. Go off someplace and moan about the rights of the terrorists.

    And never, ever, ever think about the responsibilities of protecting the country.

    Walter (1.00 / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 10:31:00 AM EST
    Got links???

    Look. You have no creditability with me, so I just discount anything you write if you don't have a link.

    My point was, and is, simple and backed up by my link. No attacks happened after that until West left. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

    And yes, they may interviewed these people, but an interview does not make an interrogation nor an investigation.

    Parent

    And maybe????? (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 10:57:32 AM EST
    Your excuse making for why the terrorists didn't attack pretty well sums up your argument.. You have nothing to show a "cause and effect."

    I do. They quit until Col West left. A clear demonstration that terrorist do respect power, and prefer killing from ambush, including cars in crowded market places, trains, airports and office buildings rather in a face to face fight. That's why they call them terrorists.

    And I still await your links regarding the investigation. Interviewing the subjects certainly is not an investigation.

    "Hey dude, you a terrorist?"

    "No."

    "Okay, that settles that."

    hehe

    Parent

    Face to Face Fighting (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by glanton on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 11:51:28 AM EST
    "rather in a face to face fight.  That's why they call them terrorists"

    No.  Contrary to current butcherings of the nomenclature, terrorists kill civillians for political purposes.  

    The act has nothing to do with how they do it.

    The idea of 'face to face fighting,' however swaggeringly invoked by rednecks, isn't something embraced by any military or guerilla forces of any ideological stripe, including the American military.  

    Parent

    Hehe (1.00 / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 03:32:02 PM EST
    Glad you admit that terrorists kill people for political reasons.  Now. Will you please tell edger??

    Posted by edger at December 4, 2005 08:12 AM
    (I had written)Insurgents don't use car bombs to kill civilians or give booby trapped dolls to children. That is terrorist work, edgey

    (Edger replied) That is not "terrorist work" in the way you try to twist it to mean, at all. It is the work of the Iraqi people - the very people BushCo thought would throw flowers - fighting to kick the US out of Iraq":

    As for your nitpicking ankle biting complaining about my use of "face to face," I will be plainer.

    They are cowards.

    Parent

    On Nitpicking, Torture, and Cowardice (5.00 / 0) (#73)
    by glanton on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 03:55:32 PM EST
    Unlike you, I have consistently called terrorism for what it is.  Terrorism involves killing civillians for political purposes.

    As for "nitpicking," one only hopes you don't labor under the good ole boy conceit that any modern war outfit, any at all, strives to meet its enemies "face to face."

    And of course, one always finds the disparagement of "cowardice" interesting, when spewed by torture advocates.  

     

    Parent

    I understand that you (1.00 / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 21, 2007 at 08:05:51 PM EST
    tend to think... That's good.. But try the real thing. Also "Occam's Razor" argues for it.

    Actually I don't think West would have been told anything. First, he was about to receive a courts martial and secondly intelligence information is not just tossed around.

    Parent

    Uou write some Ifs and buts, but (1.00 / 0) (#105)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 23, 2007 at 10:40:43 AM EST
    I see no connection between the first paragraph and anything.

    Would you expect Hamoodi to say otherwise? How naive.


    Maybe the letter writer suggested that since the Americans no longer enjoyed the trust and aid of the police because of West's actions, maybe it was time to switch to a more defensive position. That is why the attacks stopped

    And maybe if that is what the Sgt had meant he/she would have said that.

    Since it would have derogatory about West I would think the NYT, or someone, would have outed it.

    And Sgt's don't write letters critical of strageties.

    Nope. Occam's Razor applies. The terrorists decided to wait until West, and the actions he took, was gone.

    Parent

    Got links?? I do. (1.00 / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:11:22 AM EST
    And again, please remind me how Iraq was a threat to the US.

    Link

    Iraq under Hussein was a nest for anti-American terrorists. Little noticed in weapons inspector David Kay's recent remarks was his observation that Iraq was not less dangerous than assumed but more dangerous: "I actually think what we learned during the inspection made Iraq a more dangerous place, potentially, than, in fact, we thought it was even before the war."

    What Kay means is that terrorists were traveling through a country where free-lancing scientists had nuclear, biological, and chemical programs underway -- erratic weapons programs even Hussein wasn't aware of that these terrorists could have easily exploited: "We know that terrorists were passing through Iraq. And now we know that there was little control over Iraq's weapons capabilities. I think it shows that Iraq was a very dangerous place. The country had the technology, the ability to produce, and there were terrorist groups passing through the country -- and no central control." Up until the war started Iraqi scientists were "actively working to produce a biological weapon using the poison ricin," says Kay.

    And then we have this from Patrick Fitzgerald testifying to the 9/11 commission:

    Link

    We did understand from people, including al-Fadl -- and my recollection is that he would have described this most likely in public at the trial that we had, but I can't tell you that for sure; that was a few years ago -- that at a certain point they decided that they wouldn't work against each other and that we believed a fellow in al Qaeda named Mondu Saleem (ph), Abu Harzai (ph) the Iraqi, tried to reach a, sort of, understanding where they wouldn't work against each other. Sort of, the enemy of my enemy is my friend

    And in the end, we find the motive for all of the hatred.

    Link

    So the anti-Semite comes to a chilling place: He easily joins himself to evil in order to serve God. Fighting and even killing Jews brings the world closer to God's intended human hierarchy. For Nazis, the "final solution" was an act of self-realization and a fulfillment of God's will. At the center of today's militant Islamic identity there is a passion to annihilate rather than contain Israel. And today this identity applies the anti-Semitic model of hatred to a vastly larger group--the infidel

    Really Walter, you should quit depending on what MoveOn and Kos tells you and start thinking for yourself. It won't hurt very much....


    Parent

    Polls polls polls (none / 0) (#1)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 02:00:32 AM EST
    Some interesting notes on the WAPO Iowa Poll:
    Obama 33 Hillary 29 Edwards 20 +-4 percent
    as for the internals(which should always be taken with a grain of salt IMO)

    More than seven in 10 of Obama's supporters said they are certain to participate in the caucuses, compared with 59 percent of Clinton's backers.

    HIll backers have no fear though:

    Clinton's supporters, however, are the most firmly behind her. Seventy percent said they will definitely caucus for her in two weeks, while Edwards's and Obama's supporters were more apt to say there is a good chance they might change their minds.

    Second Choices included, may be Hillary's weak point:

    Because of the rules for Iowa's Democratic caucuses, voters' second choices can affect the results in many precincts. When the votes for other candidates were reallocated on the basis of second choices, Obama led with 37 percent to Clinton's 31 percent and Edwards's 26 percent.

    As for the insider advantage poll showing Edwards ahead, real clear politics uses the very likely to attend numbers which show Obama ahead. Check it out here.
    Is that a mistake by someone? is it customary to take those numbers? i don't know much about polling.  Please don't answer with who you want the poll to show ahead.

    Big fire in Deadeye's offices in the EOB (none / 0) (#4)
    by scribe on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 10:26:37 AM EST
    According to the article, billowing clouds of black smoke and flames were in Deadeye's "ceremonial" suite of offices in the EOB, and it took about an hour to bring under control.

    I'm not a firefighter, but anything in an office which takes an hour to get under control is pretty serious.

    And, no, I don't doubt for a minute the provenance of the fire.

    As the wag says:  "Come on down to the store for the big fire sale tomorrow, after the big fire tonight!"

    Hat tip to (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 11:09:45 AM EST
    Pico at Docudharma this morning:
    Accused of homosexual acts, Iranian Makwan Moloudzadeh was murdered in prison by guards earlier this month.  I'm not one to flare up in anger, but this is f***ing barbaric.  In the meantime, the U.S. is still considering deportation of Iranian gays begging for amnesty... further proof that our own fundamentalists have more in common with Iran than they'd like to admit.


    Obama and Racism As a Factor (none / 0) (#11)
    by Aaron on Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 07:13:48 PM EST
    Hillary Clinton's Firewall: Will Barack Obama's anemic standing among Latinos be his undoing?

    [But there may be another factor in Clinton's success among Latinos, particularly with regard to Obama. And it may have less to do with enthusiasm for her candidacy than with a lack of enthusiasm for the Illinois senator. Over the last two decades, there has been evidence of growing hostility from Hispanics toward African Americans. Some of this hostility is the result of conflicts, or perceived conflicts, over politically controlled resources in cities and states. But as Tanya K. Hernandez, a professor of law at George Washington, has argued recently, it may also be a legacy of an older Latin American prejudice against blacks that has been transplanted to this country.

    While this conflict passes largely unnoticed in the popular press, African American and Latino sociologists have been conducting extensive surveys in Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, and Philadelphia. These surveys have generally found that Latinos display more prejudice toward African Americans than African Americans do toward Latinos or than whites display toward African Americans. In the words of University of Houston sociologist Tatcho Mindiola, Jr. and two associates, "in general African Americans have more positive views of Hispanics than vice versa."

    In Mindiola's surveys of racial attitudes in Houston, they asked Latino respondents to describe blacks. Some of the terms that most often came to mind were "noisy," "loud," "lazy," "dropouts/uneducated," "hostile," "complainers/whiners," "bad people," "prejudiced," "aggressive," "angry," "disrespectful/rude," and "violent." Only 54 percent of U.S.-born Latinos and 46 percent of immigrant Latinos approved of their children dating an African American. 41 percent of U.S.-born Latinos thought blacks had "too much power." Half thought that "most government programs that are designated for minorities favor African Americans."

    Duke University's Paula McClain, working with nine other sociologists, found similar attitudes among Latinos living in Durham, North Carolina. According to McClain et al., "Latino immigrants hold negative stereotypical views of blacks and feel that they have more in common with whites than with blacks." For instance, 58.9 percent of Latino immigrants, but only 9.3 percent of whites, reported feeling that "few or almost no blacks are hard-working."

    These attitudes were not confined to working-class Latinos. Yolanda Flores Niemann of Washington State University and four other sociologists discovered among Latino college students the same kind of stereotypes that Mindiola found in Houston. Among the top ten traits that Latino college students ascribed to black males were "antagonistic," "speak loudly," "muscular," "criminal," "dark skin," and "unmannerly." ]



    In the end (1.00 / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:20:13 AM EST
    the issue becomes simply this.

    If I take no points off because a person is black, gay, female, etc...... Then I should put no points on.

    Strive for neutral. Look at each person for who they are. What they have done. What they claim to want to do...

    Easy to say, very hard to do.

    Parent

    neutral (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by Jgarza on Thu Dec 20, 2007 at 11:31:14 AM EST
    If I take no points off because a person is black, gay, female, etc...... Then I should put no points on.

    It doesn't matter if you are neutral, the grand scheme of things has to be neutral.  I know people take points off for the above mentioned qualities, so i add them.  On top of that i think having suffered some amount of oppression, as all the above mentioned minority groups have, adds character, and understanding that someone who has never been oppressed, will just never have.  So some of my added points are for balance, others because i think someones experience as a minority has value.

    Parent