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Hispanics and Blacks: Another Race-Fueled Contest?

Just when Hillary and Obama called a truce on the race issue, the New York Times brings it up again, in the context of the tension between Latino and Hispanics and African Americans.

Shorter version: The article plays to stereotypes and says Clinton has the edge because Latinos are strong on motherhood and identify with Clinton.

Mr. Obama, some party officials and scholars suggested, may face additional difficulty if Hispanic women respond to Mrs. Clinton’s increasingly strong appeal for support based on sex. A rally here Saturday was packed with Hispanic women who shrieked at seeing Mrs. Clinton.

“The Hispanic community is very family oriented, and we respect our mothers,” said Ruben Kihuen, an influential Democratic assemblyman from Las Vegas who supported Mrs. Clinton. “A lot of middle-aged women see her as a mother, a head of the household, and they can identify with this. Especially when they see her daughter, Chelsea, with her.”

On the other hand, it says, Obama, who has taken to joining the crowds' "Si se puede" chants at his campaign appearances, is doing okay.

Fanning the flames is Al Sharpton: [more...]

The Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, who has been on the front line of many of the black-Latino battles in New York politics, said the tension would be a problem for Mr. Obama across the country and in New York, which also votes on Feb. 5. He said Mr. Obama would be at a disadvantage because of his choice to be a “race-neutral candidate.”

“It’s going to be a challenge that he has got to deal with,” Mr. Sharpton said. “There’s a natural history, and we’ve made some progress. But he has not been part of those efforts to make progress.”

Then there's Obama supporters, like State Senate majority leader, Gloria Romero of East Los Angeles, who bash Hillary:

“I don’t think eating tacos,” is effective, she said with a flick at Mrs. Clinton. “We need to address what unites us. The key is not to raise the wedge issue.”

Ok, let's talk about the issues. How are the two candidates different on issues of importance to this increasingly influential group of voters? Which one has proposed a policy for them to rally behind? Who's got the better track record?

We'll all be better off if we keep the discussion on that level.

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  • Display: Sort:
    lets not try to hid or ignore the issues (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by lpaulyg1980 on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 05:56:39 AM EST
    There are quite a bit of race or ethnic issues in play to day...as well as sexual orientation.  

    so let them talk  

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:25:37 AM EST
    Race and gender are bound to be issues given the candidates, but this article approaches them in a completely irresponsible way, citing no factual data (like polls) and letting people spout the worst kind of stereotyping as if it's analysis.

    That's the problem with our press, with a few exceptions, most of what they produce on these kinds of issues don't shine any light on the subjects, they just throw gasoline on the flames.

    Parent

    Ugh! (none / 0) (#1)
    by BDB on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:54:52 PM EST
    The New York Times should be ashamed of that story on so many levels.  It gives a platform for folks to peddle every stereotype imaginable.  It says things that are just wrong.  For example,
     
    if Hispanic women respond to Mrs. Clinton's increasingly strong appeal for support based on sex.

    Clinton is not making a strong appeal for support based on sex.  She has gotten strong backing from women, who might, in part, be drawn to her because of her sex.  It is not the same thing.  

    I'm not even going to talk about that Al Sharpton quote.  It's just offensive.

    Same thing for Romero.   Although I admit I don't entirely understand her comment.

    I don't know what to say about that "Hillary as mother" stuff.  Maybe it's an improvement over our search for some big Daddy figure, but I doubt it.  And, historically speaking, hispanic culture hasn't exactly been famous for empowering women.  If Hillary wins the hispanic vote it's going to be because of her work in hispanic communities starting with baby-sitting for migrant workers when she was a teenager in Illinois and registering hispanic voters in Texas in 1972.  Not because of that stereotypical crap.

    Frankly (none / 0) (#3)
    by Jgarza on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:59:34 PM EST
    i don't think it has anything to do with sex, or gender. Hispanics like the Clinton's, because of the Clinton's record.

    Clinton is not making a strong appeal for support based on sex.  She has gotten strong backing from women, who might, in part, be drawn to her because of her sex.  It is not the same thing.


    Parent
    Totally Agree (none / 0) (#6)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:05:25 AM EST
    Oh... (none / 0) (#4)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:02:20 AM EST
    And thanks NYT for pitting hispanics against African-Americans.  I was getting tired of the liberal press working to pit women and African Americans against each other.  So thank you for making sure that this campaign stays focused anywhere but on policies.  Jerks.

    Thanks, Jeralyn, for asking about policies.  What a concept?

    Here in California and I'd suspect in Nevada, the housing crisis is probably going to hit them fairly hard.  As with African Americans they were more likely to get stuck with subprime loans whether they needed them or not.  Plus, here in LA a lot of the housing divisions located furthest from the city will be hit hardest by the collapse.  A lot - although by no means all - of the folks buying those houses and condos were hispanics.  So like everyone else in California (and Nevada), I'd expect hispanics to be pretty worried about housing.

    Parent

    I love how it comes (none / 0) (#8)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:11:46 AM EST
    out before any state with a sizable Hispanic population has even voted.  they don't even have voting data to back them up.

    Parent
    Since When (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:28:42 AM EST
    has a complete lack of facts ever stopped the modern day media from pushing a storyline it wants to push.  It's a disgrace.  

    Parent
    I found the article (none / 0) (#2)
    by Jgarza on Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:57:27 PM EST
    pretty offensive.  It has some quotes from one person saying their mother wouldn't vote for a black man, then broadens that to the entire Hispanic community. It briefly mentions that Hispanics are strong Clinton supporters because of the Clinton's record, basically the article claims it is all racism.

    I thought Barack himself had good lines talking about how Hispanics nationally don't know his record.  Of course the Nytimes doesn't care about his record, Issues? that's no good for business.  All the NYTimes wants is a race war.

    Yes (none / 0) (#5)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:04:35 AM EST
    It's an embarrassment.  If Clinton does well among hispanics it is because she's been working in that community for years.  That's a challenge for Obama to overcome, but that doesn't mean he can't do it.   To suggest it's driven by racism belittles her work, insults hispanics, and reduces Obama to nothing but his race.  Ick.  

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#7)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:09:37 AM EST
    This article may tie Perry Bacon Jr. article as the worst of this campaign season.

    Some people say Obama is a Muslim, he says he is not but people still say it. Who do we beleive?

    This article IMO basically says, some people say Hispanics won't vote for a black man, because they are racist. Hispanics say they vote based on issues, but people still say that it is race.  Who do we beleive?

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    We believe the voter when he or she goes to the (none / 0) (#9)
    by rhbrandon on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:23:21 AM EST
    polls.

    Pundits and political writers say lots of things about blocs of voters with little faith in the individual citizen.

    Folks like Sharpton have built their careers on division and political denomination. Too many people have bought into it. Too many, frankly, are exploiting it now.

    We're better than that; our candidates are better than that, despite their supporters.

    Parent

    This whole NYT media culture (none / 0) (#10)
    by RalphB on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:23:53 AM EST
    is getting worse every election cycle.  I also think the article is insulting to every one mentioned and a total pant load.

    What's sadder is this culture of creepiness seems to be spreading.  Looks like the real racism in this campaign is in the media.

    From my perspective, most voters of any ethnicity will vote on one of two reasons.  Either they vote based on issues or they vote based on emotional connections.  I have no clue which is more important to what percentage but I don't think you can differentiate ethnically.

    On issues and past performance, I think Sen Clinton will get more votes.  Especially when you take into account the recent economic package she is proposing.


    Parent

    Racism is deeply emotional... (none / 0) (#17)
    by Aaron on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:48:49 AM EST
    ... and can be a prime motivator in elections.

    And spare us Hillary's economic package proposal please, which is little more than attempt to buy voters, hardly better than George Bush's tax rebate proposal.  Vote for me because I'm going to pay you.  I find that highly objectionable.

    Parent

    Politics is the distribution of money (none / 0) (#20)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 08:01:12 AM EST
    If you don't get that, you should go back and think carefully. When Obama promises universal health care, what do you think he is doing?

    The key to understanding this is to understand what it means to be a nation. Its understanding the key word in the phrase "our natural resources" is OUR. It's  OUR "boys in uniform" who are fighting and dying. Its OUR labor that makes the economy grow.

    Politics is always about who gets the money. Democrats used to try and ensure everyone got a piece of the pie. Some of us still believe that. On the other hand,  Republicans claim ownership of the pie and most people get crumbs.
     

    Parent

    Oh please (none / 0) (#21)
    by RalphB on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 08:06:34 AM EST
    at least try to get one thing right anyway.  You might try reading Paul Krugman's column in the NYT about these proposals. But it contains some facts and might influence you.  

    Her proposal deals mostly with regulating the sub-prime problems and putting a short term lid on foreclosures to calm the storm. Plus proposals for alternative energy which should yield some jobs and promote economic growth.

    Obama on the other hand wants to give everyone a $250 check from the IRS.  Does that sound vaguely like Bush's $300 rebate to you.  :-)


    Parent

    Today, on All Things Considered on NPR, (none / 0) (#11)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:26:02 AM EST
    I heard three South Carolina black women being interviewed.  Two already planned to vote for Obama.  One was undecided.  They talked about being pulled between voting for Clinton or Obama and seemed to agree it came down to:  what will I be proudest of telling my grandchildren, that I voted for a black person or a female, and they felt proudest if they voted for Obama. One woman sd. I have to consider if my problems are due to my sex or my color.  She attributed her problems to being black.

    Honestly? (none / 0) (#16)
    by BDB on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:45:51 AM EST
    That doesn't bother me in the least.  I think it's completely rational, all else being equal, that African Americans think their lives would be better if Obama were elected because of the change in culture.

    I'd say the same thing about women.  I think it's completely rational for women to think that the culture would improve in ways that benefit them if there is a female president.

    So it seems completely rational to me that African American women are then weighing which election would change the culture most to their benefit.  

    We treat identity politics in this country like it's always irrational to vote based on them.  But that's not always true.  White men have done pretty well in a system run by white men.  I do not believe that's a coincidence.  (And, ironically, the one group that almost never gets accused of voting based on identity politics is white men.  They are always "rational" voters.  Ask Chris Matthews.)  

    It's only irrational if you are completely ignoring policy, voting for politicians who push policies hostile to you.  But that doesn't sound like it's the case here.  It sounds like these folks have looked at their policies and are comfortable with both of them.  

    Parent

    Interesting. (none / 0) (#13)
    by DA in LA on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:40:52 AM EST
    This is how this is going to go.  We can scream about it all we want, but what is different than previous years?  The media ripped Al Gore apart with lies.  It's just more of the same.

    The New Yorker also has a new article out that discusses race a bit.  This is the most interesting tidbit:

    On the morning after Clinton's victory, I talked to Sergio Bendixen, one of her pollsters, who specializes in the Hispanic vote. "In all honesty, the Hispanic vote is extremely important to the Clinton campaign, and the polls have shown--and today is not a great day to cite polls--that even though she was slipping with women in Iowa and blacks in South Carolina, she was not slipping with Hispanics," he said. "The fire wall doesn't apply now, because she is in good shape, but before last night the Hispanic vote was going to be the most important part of her fire wall on February 5th." The implications of that strategy are not necessarily uplifting.

    When I asked Bendixen about the source of Clinton's strength in the Hispanic community, he mentioned her support for health care, and Hispanic voters' affinity for the Clinton era. "It's one group where going back to the past really works," he said. "All you need to say in focus groups is `Let's go back to the nineties.' " But he was also frank about the fact that the Clintons, long beloved in the black community, are now dependent on a less edifying political dynamic: "The Hispanic voter--and I want to say this very carefully--has not shown a lot of willingness or affinity to support black candidates."

    I'd provide the link, but I don't know how to do so here, without using the entire address.

    Whether you and others want to admit it... (none / 0) (#15)
    by Aaron on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:45:32 AM EST
    ...it is very different this time.  Specifically because we have an African-American, someone of mixed racial heritage in fact, and a White woman as the front runners.  That's never happened before, nothing even close to this has ever happened before.

    So let's start discussing the now, as opposed to trying to compare to past situations which don't really apply.

    Parent

    Tool (none / 0) (#18)
    by DA in LA on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 02:03:33 AM EST
    To link, with apologies if it's too basic:

    -highlight the URL of the web-page that you want to link to.

    -copy the URL ("edit" then "copy").

    -come back to TL and write something in the "Comments:" box.

    -highlight the word(s) in that comment that you want to be the link.

    -click the "URL" button above the "Comments:" box, it's the button that has
    an icon that looks like links of a chain. That brings up a link box.

    -hold down the "Ctrl" button on your computer's keyboard and then type "v". That copies the url into the link box.

    -click "OK."

    -click the "Preview" button below the "Comments:" box.

    -if the preview looks good - ie., the word(s) you selected to be the link
    are a different color from the rest of the text - click the "Post" button below the "Comments:" box.

    Parent

    Race is a factor particularly among many Hispanic (none / 0) (#14)
    by Aaron on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 12:41:58 AM EST
    I don't think we can hide from these realities.  They must be addressed and dealt with.

    Hillary Clinton's Firewall

    [But there may be another factor in Clinton's success among Latinos, particularly with regard to Obama. And it may have less to do with enthusiasm for her candidacy than with a lack of enthusiasm for the Illinois senator. Over the last two decades, there has been evidence of growing hostility from Hispanics toward African Americans. Some of this hostility is the result of conflicts, or perceived conflicts, over politically controlled resources in cities and states. But as Tanya K. Hernandez, a professor of law at George Washington, has argued recently, it may also be a legacy of an older Latin American prejudice against blacks that has been transplanted to this country.

    While this conflict passes largely unnoticed in the popular press, African American and Latino sociologists have been conducting extensive surveys in Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, and Philadelphia. These surveys have generally found that Latinos display more prejudice toward African Americans than African Americans do toward Latinos or than whites display toward African Americans. In the words of University of Houston sociologist Tatcho Mindiola, Jr. and two associates, "in general African Americans have more positive views of Hispanics than vice versa." ]

    [These attitudes were not confined to working-class Latinos. Yolanda Flores Niemann of Washington State University and four other sociologists discovered among Latino college students the same kind of stereotypes that Mindiola found in Houston. Among the top ten traits that Latino college students ascribed to black males were "antagonistic," "speak loudly," "muscular," "criminal," "dark skin," and "unmannerly."

    This hostility of Latinos toward blacks has sometimes showed up in political behavior. While both groups--especially if Florida's Cubans are excluded--generally vote Democratic, there have been instances where Hispanics, faced with a black Democratic candidate, or with a white Democratic candidate closely tied to the black community, have voted Republican.]  

    I can attest personally from first-hand experience to this phenomena in South Florida and Miami particularly, where there is a great deal of animosity directed towards the African-American and Haitian community.  Even within the Hispanic community itself among Dominicans and Cubans I've seen these problems within the context of families.  Fathers disowning daughters because the man she plans to marry is two shades darker than she is.

      These are not the kind of issues that can be overcome with policy discussions or platform, it speaks to a much deeper problem in America and society. The truth is that when someone has developed a strong distaste and prejudice for individuals of a certain racial or ethnic group, they will vote against them as a direct result of their emotional response.  It's one of the great motivators in politics actually.

    How do you overcome this?  That remains one of the great questions yet unanswered for America and humanity.  I'm open to suggestions, we badly need some deeply creative thinking if we are to tackle this monumental problem.

    Every Community (none / 0) (#22)
    by Jgarza on Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 10:20:05 AM EST
    has racist elements.  There are portions of the Hispanic community that dislike, other hispanics for being immigrants, that dislike African Americans, that dislike white people.  There are fringes in every ethnic group.

    That doesn't mean because Hillary Clinton enjoys higher support among Hispanics, it is because, they won't vote for a black candidate.

    The article even notes that in Illinois, Hispanics like him, he attributes that to them knowing his stance on the issues, and his record fighting for hispanics.

    If Barack Obama, looses, and I hope he wins, and i were an adviser, the first thing i would tell him to do is to start trying to reach out to the Hispanic community, nationally.  he just doesn't have the same history the Clintons have.

    Parent