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What If Obama Is Susceptible To The Wilder Effect?

I am one of the few people who, before the New Hampshire results, expressly stated a belief in the continued existence of the Wilder Effect (named after Douglas Wilder's wide poll lead evaporated on election day (see also Tom Bradley in California and David Dinkins in New york for other examples) - where certain white voters telling pollsters they will vote for a black candidate when they will not. I believe Barack Obama is an African American candidate where this is much less likely to be the case. I think what happened in New Hampshire was clear - women flocked to Hillary in response to the disgraceful misogynistic coverage she was getting from the Media. I do not believe the Wilder Effect had anything to do with it.

But some pollsters, in understandable CYA mode given the fact that their imprecision was exposed for all the world to see, and strangely to me, some Obama supporters, are eagerly forwarding this explanation.

Why strange for Obama supporters? Because if they believe Obama is susceptible to the Wilder Effeect, they are undercutting his electability argument. What would Obama supporters have us do now? Discount 5-7 percent from all poll findings for Obama? Because if that is the case, then he is clearly the least electable candidate. I can not imagine that is what they would want. But that is the logical conclusion to draw.

I reject the Wilder Effect explanation for New Hampshire and believe that we need not discount Obama's poll numbers. I believe he is every bit as electable as Hillary Clinton.

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    I find it hard to believe (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by kid oakland on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:55:48 PM EST
    that a candidate who wins the white male vote and pulls in almost 30,000 more votes than Al Gore did when he carried the New Hampshire primary...(and gains more votes than the Republican victor, btw)...is representative of any effect other than a heck of a lot of people voting for him.

    At some point in American politics we have to get beyond this looking over our shoulders stuff.

    In 2004 I pledged not to volunteer for another all white, all male ticket.  I don't think that pledge will be an issue this year.

    I do think you could make a case that another all white/all male ticket could well result in a "Kerry/Edwards" effect, or a "Gore/Lieberman" effect at the polls.

    But, hey, that's just me, huhn?

    I've never heard anybody mention those phenomena before!

    People only mention (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Maryb2004 on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:10:48 PM EST
    the Gore/Lieberman or Kerry/Edwards effect when they are worried we're going to bore the electorate into a stupor ... again.  

    But seriously, you're right.  You're right that the only effect so far has been a lot of people coming out to vote.  It's all good.


    Parent

    Thanks for addressing this (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by andgarden on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:43:15 PM EST


    Really interesting. I can't add (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:00:15 PM EST
    a thing.  As a Caucasian former Iowan who was quite surprised to learn the state was still 95$ Caucasian, I didn't think Obama had a chance there.  I truly hope you are correct in your prediction.  Do you think South Carolina will be a good test of your theory?

    Also, in your opinion, is Hillary Clinton done if she can't rev up sympathy against media misogyny?  

    Black Conservative Blogs, YOU MUST BELIEVE (none / 0) (#2)
    by Aaron on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:23:45 PM EST
    The Bradley you Wilder effect was the headline on the Black conservative blogs that I visit regularly, of course.  Barack Obama was really shaking up their little world, and their ardent belief that the Democratic Party is still a deep sink of racism, much the way it was some 70 years ago.

    I could almost feel their suffering when Obama one Iowa, that great midwestern bastion of whiteness, and they feel so redeemed in their beliefs now after his loss in New Hampshire, even though it was very close.  It really is a pitiable thing to watch, as they cling so tenaciously to their beliefs.  Before this, they were saying that Obama isn't really Black, and if he became president it's only because he's light-skinned and half Caucasoid.  Truly pathetic.

    I have no doubt that racism was a factor for some, because I know New England, but whether it constituted a deciding factor or even a major contributing factor is doubtful in my mind. I would need to see some evidence of that, and I haven't seen any exit polls that prove it. I think the media coverage, the undecideds, and the fact that so many independents decided to participate in the Republican side of the primary, because they thought Obama had it easy, was probably the deciding factors.

    The pollsters obviously underestimated Hillary Clinton's support, and I guess you could say that they estimated Barack Obama support pretty well at 36%, but I believe that it was the  the women who saw Hillary cry, coupled with the fact that the media was going on and on about how it would be over if Barack Obama won New Hampshire, prompting many people to perhaps change their vote in the hopes of keeping Hillary's campaign going.

    What ever the reason, I can honestly say that I'm glad this is going to be a real fight, because that's what America deserves, to have our candidates battling and working for our votes, with passion and fire.  That's how you get people interested and motivate them to participate in their democracy.

    It sure is up in the air, and I hope it stays that way through super Tuesday.  Though I must admit I'm feeling worn out already, I've never had this much emotionally invested in a political campaign, and it's leaving me more than a bit drained.  But I suppose that's the price you pay for democracy.  :-)

    Congrats again to the Hillary supporters, now I don't wanna see you guys getting disheartened again, the way I saw after Iowa.  Some of you had all but given up, I don't wanna see you going there again.  Have little faith.  When it comes to politics you've got to cultivate some measure of belief, because the truth is you never really know what's going to happen next, or what the hell you're candidates is going to do once they get in office.  Pessimism is not an option.  :-)


    The same (none / 0) (#3)
    by Jgarza on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:37:04 PM EST
    reason Hillary Clinton's campaign pointed out that Iowa had a bad record of electing women.  It also undercuts her electablity argument, but it also gives people a reason to rally for you since you have been subjected to unfairness.

    I find it funny as soon as Obama mentions race, you say that if there is a race issues it undercuts his candidacy, but if Hillary has a gender issue, which by your argument undercuts her candidacy, you want to defend her.  That is one nasty double standard.

    Also (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jgarza on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:42:37 PM EST
    if the media hates her it undercuts her electability argument, as well as the chances she will be able to get anything done.

    Hillary Clinton victum of gender or media bias you rally to her.  Obama victim of race bias and you can't help the urge to attack his candidacy? ....smooth.

    Parent

    I anticipate your comments will soon be (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:48:36 PM EST
    smitten by a terrible, swift sword wielded by BTD, who only last night announced he is now a conditional supporter of Obama.  Although he was initially an announced supporter of Chris Dodd, and later a tepid supporter of Obama, never, ever, has he announced his support for Hillary Clinton.  

    Parent
    I didn't accuse him (none / 0) (#16)
    by Jgarza on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:13:13 PM EST
    of supporting or not supporting anyone. I pointed out that argument that he is making, also applies to Clinton.  Any time you attack forces beyond your control it undercuts your electability.  When Clinton claims fores beyond her control are at work he rallies to her, if Obama does, he writes that it is bad for his candidacy.  It is a double standard

    Parent
    You accused me of dishonesty (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:25:36 PM EST
    And you KNOw, or know now, that is a problem.

    Stop it.

    Parent

    what (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jgarza on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:28:26 PM EST
    where?

    Parent
    i don't think i did (none / 0) (#22)
    by Jgarza on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:30:59 PM EST
    but if you do feel free to delete.  i was just trying to point out that any circumstance beyound a candidates control affects their electability, and we have talked about a lot of things Clinton can't control. Media etc. and this fact ahs never been mentioned.

    I agree with you i don't think it had anything to do with this.

    Parent

    race and Obama loss of (none / 0) (#23)
    by Jgarza on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:31:47 PM EST
    NH

    Parent
    not related (none / 0) (#24)
    by Jgarza on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:32:03 PM EST
    the fact that you (none / 0) (#25)
    by Jgarza on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:33:27 PM EST
    had the urge to rally to Clinton when the media attacked, in a sexist way, i think makes the perfect case for why his campaign would think they can benefit from bringing this up

    Parent
    i was not trying (none / 0) (#27)
    by Jgarza on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:36:27 PM EST
    to accuse you of being dishonest, but use your own past behavior to answer your question:

    But some pollsters, in understandable CYA mode given the fact that their imprecision was exposed for all the world to see, and strangely to me, some Obama supporters, are eagerly forwarding this explanation.


    Parent
    sheesh (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:08:37 PM EST
    have you even read a freaking thing I have written?

    And if this seems an attack on Obama to you then you really are blind.

    I do KNOW it is an attack on me and I tell you again, do it again and I will ask J. to ban you. I think she will agree with me this time.

    Parent

    This is ridiculous (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:07:06 PM EST
    Where in Gawd's name did I say Hillary was right or SMART by attacking Iowa on gender grounds?

    Heck, I barely heard about it.

    You need to check it with your attacks. J. pushed back on my last request but you are definitiely straying onto the same ground again.

    Now cool it withthe insults.

    Parent

    Shake off that gnat. Kid Oakland awaits. (none / 0) (#15)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:10:43 PM EST
    Two things (none / 0) (#6)
    by andreww on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:52:06 PM EST
    BTD - I agree with a lot of what you have to say here.  I am an Obama supporter, some might even say "fanboy" :), and I don't believe that Obama's race had anything to do with his loss.  

    This being said, I also don't believe Hillary's emotional moment had anything to do with her win.  The internals show only about 20% of the voters decided in the last three days, and of them she and Obama split the vote.  Assuming these numbers are correct, that means that moment had nothing to do with her win, unless they were all planning to vote for Obama and then switched.

    Now, I understand I will probably upset a lot of people with this following statement; but there are some fishy things about these results.  Namely, that Obama won in towns with paper ballots by a margin of 83% to 45% and lost in towns using diebold machines by a margin of 59% to 38%.  Now You can find the raw data here for the votes http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/nh/nh_primary_dem_results_by_town/
    and here for the towns that use diebold vs. paper ballot.   http://www.bbvdocs.org/NH/state/Jan-08-votingsystems-NH.txt

    This combined with all the polls being wrong gives me pause.  I know I will be chided as a conspiracy theorist by a lot of you, but what occurred last night was odd - and in more ways than just the sudden swell of support for Hillary.

    If you think I'm crazy, please, before placing judgement on me watch the HBO documentary "Hacking Democracy"  

    I don't think (none / 0) (#28)
    by RalphB on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:51:48 PM EST
    you're crazy but you should know that the Diebold machines used in NH are the old optical scanners that read paper ballots.  NH uses no touch screen computer voting machines, it's all paper ballots.

    I guess those could be hacked, but it's much less likely and, in this case, I would say not even close to possible.


    Parent

    goodness (none / 0) (#29)
    by Judith on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:55:03 PM EST
    how do you know that?  I am in awe -really.  I have no idea about what stae uses what beyond my own and FLORIDA.  ;0

    Parent
    Those old machines (none / 0) (#52)
    by andreww on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:27:39 PM EST
    have memory cards in them.  They count the ballots and store the results.  Then all the memory cards results are put into a central tabulator which adds up the votes from each memory card.  These are very similar to the ones hacked in the documentary "Hacking Democracy"

    Also keep in mind, the exit polls also showed Obama winning.  These are the EXITS.  We're supposed to believe that people didn't vote for Obama, but thought that would make them look racist, and so told the exit pollsters they voted for him.

    That's one of the current explanations for the exits being wrong.  While everyone focuses on why the pre-election polls were off, what we should be focusing on is why the exits were off.  That is what's fishy.

    Parent

    Please apply this logic to exit polls in (none / 0) (#53)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:33:50 PM EST
    Presidential election 2004, which were severely wrong.

    Parent
    You sure... (none / 0) (#54)
    by andreww on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:41:16 PM EST
    it was the exits that were wrong?  Keep in mind, exits is how we determine whether an election in foreign lands was likely rigged or not.

    Parent
    Well, whatever exit polls Wonkette was (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:49:17 PM EST
    relying on rely in the day were really, really wrong. Kerry won!

    Parent
    Hillary is up in the CNN exit polling (none / 0) (#65)
    by joc on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 11:09:27 AM EST
    "Also keep in mind, the exit polls also showed Obama winning."

    Which exit polls are you looking at? The CNN exit polls showed Clinton ahead (link here). This is easiest to see on the questions about 'having children under 18' and 'opinion of the Bush Administration', where she wins both categories of each question (i.e. she won overall).

    Given that she won the exit polls (as shown by CNN), that would tend to discount the Wilder/Bradley effect.

    Parent

    Catholics and Clinton in New Hampshire (none / 0) (#7)
    by Aaron on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:52:11 PM EST
    Catholics for Clinton?

    She may have won with older, blue-collar Catholic women. But given her identification with abortion, it still comes as a surprise. On the other hand, white Catholics have a fraught history when it comes to race relations, and Obama's channeling of the Protestant social gospel may not resonate with them. Catholics have been a "homeless" voting bloc since the Kennedy era, so their choices are significant.



    The two sentence preceding the (none / 0) (#11)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:58:10 PM EST
    excerpt you posted are:

    What that means is not altogether clear.  I'd like to see the correlation with class and gender.

    The author of the comment is speculating, in other words.

    Parent

    by the way... (none / 0) (#8)
    by andreww on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:54:59 PM EST
    that info was pulled from posts on blackboxvoting.org which is run by Bev Harris, the creator of the documentary I mention.

    Unrelated to Kathyrn Harris, I hope. (none / 0) (#12)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:02:27 PM EST
    I personally do not say that. (none / 0) (#10)
    by BlueLakeMichigan on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 08:57:52 PM EST
    Is it possible? I wouldn't rule it out, and it happens, I'm almost positive, to SOME degree, but to this much of a degree? I dunno. I think some people in any such campaign, when faced with a loss become unable to understand, whether it's Clinton or Obama or Romney or Giuliani or whomever, and so they grab at whatever they can. I support Obama solidly and I don't, so I'm one Obama supporter not in that class of yours, BTD.

    I only say I do not support the theory because Obama's numbers are actually consistent with some of the polls. Hillary's votes just shot up much at Edwards's and Richardson's expense. That's part of why I am not believing it was really affected by racist whites. (Let's be honest here, the charge is racism)

    New Hampshire Exit Polls (none / 0) (#17)
    by Aaron on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:18:22 PM EST
    What We Can Learn From The Democratic Exit Polls

    Clinton is still doing well among women (particularly older and married women), traditional Democrats, voters over 40, and among lower-middle income white voters without college degrees who are worried about the economy. Obama is doing fabulously among the young and very well among independents and upscale Independents. Both of these can also be important blocs for a Democrat to win in the fall.

    Here are the groups in which Obama enjoyed a significant margin over Clinton: men, young voters (18-24), voters making more than $50,000, voters with post-graduate education (a good indication of professionals), independents, first time voters, voters without religious affiliation, men without children and single men, voters who said they were getting ahead financially, voters who thought the war in Iraq was the most important issue, who wanted change, and who wanted someone who could unite the country.

    Late NH Polls Missed Clinton Upswing

    Andrew Kohut, president of the Pew Research Center, said he thought low-income, less-educated voters who declined to be interviewed by pollsters were likelier to be reluctant to admit they would not vote for a black candidate. Pew is a nonpartisan polling organization that did no late surveys in New Hampshire.

    "You can't rule this out as an issue," Kohut said. In Iowa, "Obama was not the front-runner. He was not such a symbol, perhaps threateningly, to people who don't like blacks that he might be president."



    It is no wonder the polls turned out to (none / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:28:44 PM EST
    be inaccurate.  What a laundry list of reasons to vote for Obama.

    Parent
    Exit poll questions (none / 0) (#26)
    by Aaron on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:33:57 PM EST
    Checked the third question, that could have a connection to race.

    New Hampshire exit poll

    Which one of these four candidate qualities matters most in deciding how you voted today?

    1.  54% Can bring about needed change.

    Obama -- 55%

    Clinton -- 28%

    2.  19% Has the right experience.

    Obama -- 5%

    Clinton -- 71%

    3.  16% Cares about people like me.

    Obama -- 19%

    Clinton -- 41%

    4.  4% Has the best chance to win in November

    Obama -- 52%

    Clinton -- 26%

    Parent

    Question #3 (none / 0) (#31)
    by RalphB on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:56:45 PM EST
    has to do with race.  Not highly likely.  I imagine it has to do with the different campaigns ran by Clinton and Obama.  Obama's emphasis on overall reform and inspirational speeches don't sound like the worries of lower middle income democrats.  While Clinton's emphasis on governance and programs for the middle class would be very appealing, as we saw in '92.

    It's still the economy, stupid.

    That's a slogan, not an insult  :-)


    Parent

    that was the empathy factor (none / 0) (#46)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:48:41 PM EST
    according to one of the cable shows last night. They explained it as voters thinking Hillary was more empathetic than Obama and tied it to economics, which they said was of prime concern to NH voters.

    In other words, the "people like me" according to the one show I saw, meant people struggling to pay bills, get and keep a job, medical care, a mortgage, etc.

    Parent

    I wonder what Edwards's numbers (none / 0) (#48)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:58:54 PM EST
    were on that question.  Seems like he is the Dem. talking the most about those issues.  

    Parent
    37% (none / 0) (#50)
    by Rojas on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:18:08 PM EST
    Thanks. That figures. (none / 0) (#51)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:20:27 PM EST
    My take on his loss (none / 0) (#18)
    by kovie on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:20:13 PM EST
    is that, seeing how a big part of his strategy was to appeal to people beyond his natural semi-progressive base of supporters, via his "hope" message--especially centrist Dems, indies (both left and right-leaning, as there are few true indies who actually vote), and moderate Pubs--a lot of these extended soft supporters, while they indicated that they would vote for him in polls, ended up going back to their previous and more natural choices.

    Centrist Dems and left-leaning indies went back to Hillary, moderate Pubs and right-leaning indies voted for McCain or Romney, and perhaps even more than a few progressives went back to Edwards, disenchanted by his seeming willingness to make nice with the other side (i.e. Pubs, corporations, neocons, etc.).

    Why did they do this? Well, it's easy to understand why progressives might have left him for anyone who's been reading this or other leftie blogs recently. The media Hillary bashing, her "crying episode", Obama's regretable "You're likeable enough, Hillary" comment in the debate, and perhaps a sense among more conservative Dem-voting types that he wasn't quite ready for prime time, would have shifted votes to Hillary. And McCain's recent "surge" and the media's "comeback kid" meme surrounding him, along with a similar sense that he just wasn't ready for the presidency, might have shifted votes to McCain (or perhaps Romney).

    I.e. his strategy proved lacking. It was great at attracting lots of enthusiastic soft supporters, but when it came down to voting, many of these them proved unwilling to go all the way and vote for him.

    My 2 cents, and total speculation.

    I don't know about a lacking strategy (none / 0) (#32)
    by BlueLakeMichigan on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:56:46 PM EST
    I think looking at it, that Hillary turned out lots of votes and just pushed ahead of Obama. I mean the numbers for Obama percentage wise are around the same as the polls, (36 instead of RCP's 38 percent) so he just needs to find more votes somehow.

    Obama's message needs to be tweaked all the time, not unlike anyone else's, sure, but I think this one was about a late switch being turned on by Clinton voters who came out and a great job by their staff in turning them out. It was phenomenal even if I think it would've been better for us all had it happened the other way.

    Parent

    I suggest your perspective is skewed (none / 0) (#34)
    by Aaron on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:00:30 PM EST
    Unfortunately the numbers don't support your theory of soft support for Obama, Clinton only received about 8000 more votes in a total pool of about 275,000 participators is the Democratic primary.

    In fact these numbers reflect substantial solid support for Obama. Only in light of the polling predictions and what happened in Iowa can this be considered a disappointment for the Obama campaign.

    Clinton -- 112,238

    Obama -- 104,757

    Parent

    But (none / 0) (#36)
    by BlueLakeMichigan on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:04:51 PM EST
    Isn't that how the media spins it? For better or worse, Obama'll have a hard time convincing people who watch TV news or listen to talk radio alone that this was anything but a loss.

    Parent
    that would be (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Judith on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:14:19 PM EST
    because he lost.

    hello?

    Parent

    his campaign advisor (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:50:41 PM EST
    David Axlerod said on Larry King Live tonight the New Hampshire results "were practically a tie."

    Parent
    :When you wish upon a star, makes (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:01:16 PM EST
    no difference . . . "  Obama IS a dreamer, not a doer if he believes that.

    Parent
    I was wondering... (none / 0) (#44)
    by Aaron on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:24:21 PM EST
    ... did those GRE scores actually get you into a graduate program somewhere, one of merit I mean?  

    Because most discerning professors make it a point of ensuring that those they admit to graduate level studies have a certain degree of maturity.  
    :-)

    Parent

    That was funny! (none / 0) (#56)
    by kovie on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:44:12 PM EST
    :-)

    Parent
    My point was that (none / 0) (#58)
    by kovie on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:55:10 PM EST
    the up to 10 point lead that he had over Clinton just prior to the primary was likely made up of soft "supporters" who during that last 24 hours decided to vote for someone else. Most of those who voted for him were likely strong or moderate supporters. But of those who didn't vote for him, a significant minority might have been people who said that they would vote for him or were leaning towards him, but then didn't. How else would you explain so many polls getting it so wrong? I'm not sure why these soft supporters ended up not voting for him (and there are many possible theories that might explain it), but it seems clear that there was such a subgroup, and they did "abandon" him at the end.

    More importantly to Obama, I hope that one big lesson he took away from NH was that he can't rely on his "message of unity and hope" campaign to put him over the top and longer. It might attract a lot of curious swing voters to his rallies or lead them to tell pollsters that they're thinking of voting for him. But if he wants to get enough voters to actually win it, he's going to need to come up with something more substantive. Assuming that Edwards stays in the race, he and Hillary are going to be fighting it out over those swing voters. And in NH at least, it appears that "experience", "toughness" and "substance" won out over "hope" and "optimism" and "unity". This is a good thing, I think, as it'll toughen and smarten him up for the general, should he win the nomination.

    I think that voters absolutely want hope and change and even some unity. But only if accompanied by substance, in terms of character, policy and experience. Hillary won that vote in NH. Obama can win it back, if he does some retooling.

    Parent

    It had nothing to do with race. (none / 0) (#30)
    by Geekesque on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:55:34 PM EST
    It's counterproductive and therefore especially dumb for Obama supporters to be talking that way.

    It was a combination of gender and "not so fast, Iowa."

    I had a nagging feeling all weekend--I didn't believe the polls in my gut.  But, my brain told me numbers don't lie.

    Maybe (none / 0) (#33)
    by BlueLakeMichigan on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 09:59:20 PM EST
    But if so, then I think the voters may have just stopped one coronation and started another one. I don't see the math where anything but a running of the table gets ANYONE even close to Clinton in this primary election.

    Parent
    "Running of the table" (none / 0) (#35)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:04:49 PM EST
    What does that mean?

    Parent
    I meant in the early (none / 0) (#38)
    by BlueLakeMichigan on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:06:39 PM EST
    States, Obama would have to "run the table" or win the last two basically.

    I mean that he's got to win Nevada and South Carolina to be close.

    Parent

    Is that from poker or pool? (none / 0) (#39)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:07:17 PM EST
    According to MissLaura, I think it was, (none / 0) (#37)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:06:26 PM EST
    at DK, only one of the major universities in NH was back in session on primary night.  Lots more almost highly educated youth available for Obama, but not for the NH primary.  Maybe they can register quickly in their home states for Super Tuesday.

    Parent
    The race has been razor close wherever voters (none / 0) (#43)
    by Geekesque on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:19:38 PM EST
    have been truly engaged.

    No reason to think that won't continue.

    Nevada will be very interesting (Clinton has to be favored there) and then SC will be a donnybrook (Clinton has to be the favorite there too).

    Parent

    Why do you say Clinton has to be the favorite (none / 0) (#45)
    by oculus on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:35:13 PM EST
    in either of those states?

    Parent
    She just won New Hampshire and has (none / 0) (#67)
    by Geekesque on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 03:11:07 PM EST
    gigantic leads in all NV polls.

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#59)
    by kovie on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 11:57:26 PM EST
    He just won the endorsement of 2 big Las Vegas unions and half of SC's Dem voters are black, so this doesn't make sense. Do you have numbers or something else to back this up? Or by "Clinton" did you mean "Obama"?

    Parent
    I'm having trouble imaging the black (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 12:03:34 AM EST
    Dem. voters of SC are going to vote in lock step.  

    Parent
    Granted (none / 0) (#61)
    by kovie on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 01:19:45 AM EST
    But how does that favor Clinton? It's not necessarily going to favor Obama, but if it'll favor anyone, I would assume him and not her. So I'm wondering why you think she's favored in both states. This isn't a criticism, but an honest question.

    Parent
    I don't know if she is or isn't. I asked (none / 0) (#62)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 02:46:28 AM EST
    why anyone thought she was favored in either state.  

    Parent
    Oops, sorry, I didn't mean you (none / 0) (#63)
    by kovie on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 02:58:37 AM EST
    as I asked the same question.

    She did get the endorsement of NV's Dem rep today. And until recently she had the support of the majority of SC's black voters (as she did nationwide). But Obama got the support of those 2 NV unions today and has been increasing his support among black voters, so that might balance her advantages out.

    One thing I took away from IA/NH was that his optimistic rhetoric of unity and change can only get him so far, and he's going to need something more substantial to win this against a team as experienced and determined as Hillary's. People want hope, but they also want specifics on how we get out of today's mess. Agree with the specifics or not, but Hillary's giving them that. They also want other qualities that she's been pounding him on. Obama's got to answer this, and then some. Hope + judgement + policies + toughness + ???

    Parent

    unclear (none / 0) (#42)
    by chemoelectric on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:16:44 PM EST
    Any reasonable person would think what made the difference was Hillary Clinton's tearful expression of love and concern for her country, which the hateful and unreasonable MSM unwittingly publicized.

    Heck, I'm a man and yet couldn't miss the way it made Hillary Clinton seem much more appealing than she usually does, that it was the sort of tearing up that is associated with so-called patriots. But then I am reasonable.

    No Wilder/Bradley effect. (none / 0) (#64)
    by Grey on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 07:17:28 AM EST
    (I tried to post this last night but it never showed up, so I'm giving it another shot.)

    Sen. Obama won with the predicted percentage points; most polls showed figures around 35-36% which, in the end, is what he got. Clearly, a case can be made that most, if not all, of those who said they would vote for Senator Obama, didn't lie about it and, in fact, did vote for him. I would be more prone to believe race came into play had Obama finished a few points below what was predicted. He didn't; rather, it was Clinton who came out several points ahead of what was predicted for her.

    Well I finally know what the Wilder (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jan 10, 2008 at 11:22:21 AM EST
    effect is because I went and read up on it.  I wasn't in New Hampshire two days ago, I was in Alabama and I felt the misogyny all the way down here (no small feat) and I was pissed.  I don't even really care for Hillary Clinton and I WAS MAD.  I'm thinking that was the reason for what happened in New Hampshire and I'm glad it happened.  While we are all coming up with our theories and writing our diaries I'm thinking that there are some theories from a past America that we should put to bed and not awaken them ever again unless we have more certainty than fear of what could be under the bed.  Sort of interesting, when I googled Wilder effect this diary is listed third ;)