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Feingold: Democrats Are Bush Enablers

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Legislation
Posted on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:18:10 PM EST
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Via MYDD:

"Anybody who claims this [FISA Capitulation bill] is an okay bill, I really question if they've even read it." "Democrats enabled [this]," Feingold went on. "Some of the rank and file Democrats in the Senate who were elected on this reform platform unfortunately voted with Kit Bond who's just giggling he's so happy with what he got. We caved in."

Glenn Greenwald has video:

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    Feingold: Democrats Are Bush Enablers | 165 comments (165 topical)

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    BTW, if Masel's theory on (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:26:38 PM EST
    the Libertarian split is right, what a compelling choice for a Vice President.

    Having the other half of McCain-Feingold on the ticket would be. . .interesting to say the least.

    Not going to happen. (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by OrangeFur on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:33:24 PM EST
    I can't see Feingold joining any ticket that won't take public financing.

    Parent
    That would be the holdup (none / 0) (#7)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:33:57 PM EST
    But I think he'd get past it if he thinks he could help.

    Parent
    My sense is... (none / 0) (#66)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:06:12 AM EST
    ... that he'll get past that about the same time that Hillary gets past dropping universal health care.

    Parent
    You think she wouldn't take a place (none / 0) (#80)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:33:59 AM EST
    on the ticket? I do.

    Parent
    Agreed (none / 0) (#91)
    by Montague on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:54:51 AM EST
    Feingold means what he says and says what he means, and he sticks by it.  He's been around long enough and understands the issues deeply enough that no one is going to be able to talk him out of his positions.  It's really sad that we can't have him for president.  

    Parent
    So Sad (5.00 / 4) (#101)
    by tek on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:03:19 AM EST
    he will speak out on FISA against the people who support it, and yet, he followed the lemmings and endorsed Obama even though Obama approves the FISA sellout.  Oh, and Obama is rejecting his campaign financing ideas.  Good job, Feingold.

    Parent
    Believe me... (none / 0) (#155)
    by Montague on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:26:57 PM EST
    That's the one thing I'm mad at Feingold for!  Now, admittedly, did Feingold endorse BEFORE Obama caved in on FISA and public financing?

    In the end it's not going to matter that much.  We'll have McCain for four years.  Obama's chances in the GE are lousy.  But of course he has now set back public campaign financing several decades.

    Parent

    The clueless dupe endorsed Obama (none / 0) (#124)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:12:30 AM EST
    and dissed the candidate who was outside the Washington system who could act a little more independently.

    Why is this inneffectual man so widely admired by the cough cough ...left

    Parent

    Wait a second, you guys love ... (none / 0) (#126)
    by Tortmaster on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:15:41 AM EST
    ... Feingold and you love Hillary Clinton. Guess who they're supporting for the Presidency.

    ANSWER SHEET: If you said McCain, you're wrong!

    Parent

    Not much of a fan of Clinton. (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 04:57:57 PM EST
    grew to respect her.  I was in favour of Edwards.

    Parent
    It would be better and more useful (none / 0) (#136)
    by DFLer on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:52:10 AM EST
    if you would address your comments to specific posters, instead of the plural "you guys", for example

    Who do you mean?

    -ta

    Parent

    thank you Salo for some honest to goodness truth! (none / 0) (#129)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:24:48 AM EST


    Parent
    Uh? (none / 0) (#135)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:49:25 AM EST
    Ineffectual man? Pernicious? Wow you must be a right winger.

    He is so widely admired by progressives, because of his voting record, and positions like the one BTD just posted.

    Parent

    Voting record (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 04:58:58 PM EST
    he's never been able to get people to follow him.  He's just there hanging out acting cool for a subgroup.

    Parent
    Hell, a McCain Feingold ticket would (4.33 / 6) (#13)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:55:30 PM EST
    be more interesting to me than ANY ticket with Obama on it.

    Parent
    That sounds like something a ... (2.80 / 5) (#16)
    by Tortmaster on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:59:11 PM EST
    ... Republican -- strike that -- a conservative Republican would write. Oh, that was snark! Nevermind.

    Parent
    How quickly people (5.00 / 7) (#40)
    by tree on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:52:20 PM EST
    forget that Kerry asked McCain to be his Vice President. I guess Kerry is a conservative Republican then?

    Parent
    kerry was bush's frat brother. (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by sancho on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:07:38 AM EST
    ever wondered what that might mean in terms of his committed "electability"? as feingold must know, the dems (for the most part) are an opposition party in theory only. one party divides into two and increases its donors. the dems are ecstatic about FISA too or they would not have arranged it. and obama wont renounce its powers, i bet, if he becomes head of the corporate state that is the usa. he may even like having FISA powers. most "leaders of the free world" likely would.

    Parent
    NO (3.66 / 3) (#102)
    by tek on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:05:05 AM EST
    Obama is a conservative Republican.  He wants to have meetings at Focus on the Family campus in CO Springs and he said, "Folks aren't reading their Bibles."  Yahoo! News headlines.

    Parent
    That's a new headline for BO? (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by Shainzona on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:19:16 AM EST
    On Yahoo?  

    You're kidding, aren't you?

    He wants more people reading their bible but he snubs Muslims.

    Great candidate!

    Parent

    That (4.20 / 5) (#107)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:19:07 AM EST
    article was interesting. Obama is MORE concerned with making these people happy than McCain. More and more this election is reminding me of 1976. The problem I see with a lot of this is that the voting public is so over the whole evangelicals running government thing after having W for two terms. Obama is trying to refight the 2004 election, which outside of national security, really doesn't have much to do with this election.

    Parent
    Just what we need... (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by magisterludi on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:47:42 AM EST
    stronger, more potent Kool-Aid for the masses.

    Parent
    Certainly a stretch.... (none / 0) (#122)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:09:38 AM EST
    ...of what the REAL story is.  

    From the Horse's Mouth (via the Rocky Mountain News):

    "Last week, DuBois, a former Assemblies of God associate minister, called Minnery for what Minnery described as a cordial discussion. He would not go into detail, but he said Dubois offered to visit the ministry in August when the Democratic National Convention is in Denver.

    A possible Obama visit was not discussed, but Focus is open to one, Minnery said.

    McCain also has not met with Dobson. A McCain campaign staffer offered Dobson a meeting with McCain recently in Denver, Minnery said. Dobson declined because he prefers that candidates visit the Focus on the Family campus to learn more about the organization, Minnery said."

    Parent

    nicely done (none / 0) (#154)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:16:39 PM EST
    christians have as much right to be pandered to as us atheists....

    Parent
    Kerry, A Conservative Republican? (none / 0) (#131)
    by daring grace on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:37:36 AM EST
    Nope, but then neither was McCain back then. That was a different incarnation for him.

    Parent
    I would not be surprised in the least (none / 0) (#18)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:01:32 PM EST


    Parent
    I was surprised as well ... (2.33 / 3) (#20)
    by Tortmaster on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:07:27 PM EST
    ... until I realized it was cleverly disguised snark. The very best snark is hard to decipher as snark.  

    Parent
    Sounds Good To Me (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:38:37 PM EST
    I had not even considered it possible, but maybe. Of course I would prefer Feingold as POTUS miles over either Obama, Hillary or Edwards.

    I still do not understand how he could have possibly voted for Roberts, though.

    Parent

    He had an explanation for it (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:40:59 PM EST
    But he never said he agreed with Roberts views.


    Parent
    Views? (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by squeaky on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:59:42 PM EST
    Those were secret. BushCo refused to release hundreds of documents. So much for advice and consent.

    "These records are important because they are a window on Judge Roberts's approach to the constitutional rights that are the birthright of every American - rights that touch all our lives in so many ways every day," Mr. Leahy said in a statement.

    [snip]

    Earlier Friday, Mr. Kennedy released a letter he had written to Judge Roberts, noting that his recent responses to a committee background questionnaire played down his work in the solicitor general's office while it was highlighted on a résumé that Mr. Roberts submitted in 1991, when he was first up for a federal judgeship.

    Mr. Kennedy asked that Judge Roberts "submit as promptly as possible" a supplement to his earlier responses to the committee, by providing "a full description of your activities" as a deputy solicitor general.

    NYT

    Hello Bob... Anyone home?

    Parent

    Well OK then (none / 0) (#65)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:05:49 AM EST
    Capitulator he is, then.


    Parent
    Certainly Not As A Habit (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:21:17 AM EST
    He was the only senator to vote against the Patriot Act.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#77)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:30:27 AM EST
    He's not a capitulator all the time like the rest of the Dem party.

    But he did have his Capitulating, Bush Enabling  moments.

    Confirmed Ashcroft too, it looks like from one of your links.


    Parent

    Ashcroft Vote Was Different (none / 0) (#81)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:38:19 AM EST
    And out of principal:

    Senator Feingold has repeatedly stated that he believes a president deserves to have his cabinet nominees confirmed regardless of ideology as long as they are capable of doing the job. This is different from judicial nominees, as Senator Feingold explains in this great 2002 Progressive Magazine interview:

    The Robert's vote was a F*up, imo.


    Parent

    I had heard he made the same deference (none / 0) (#82)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:41:03 AM EST
    To Presidential authority with respect to the Roberts nomination.

    Parent
    In Response To Grahm (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:58:10 AM EST
    "I believe that the president does enjoy some deference here," said Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-S.C.) Graham said the central issue is whether the Senate will allow Bush "to fulfill a campaign promise ... to nominate a well-qualified strict constructionist to the court."

    Feingold agreed, saying the "central reason" he broke with other Democrats to vote for Roberts is that he expects the same deference to the president and his choice for the high court "when my party retakes the White House."

    link
    But this is not a principal because he voted against Thomas, Alito  and others.

    Parent

    A principal is not applied (none / 0) (#85)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:09:00 AM EST
    With absolute consistency, and one can certainly believe a president loses any expectation of deference by displaying a complete inability to provide adequate main stream thinking nominees for judgeships.

    In short, things change.


    Parent

    Things Do Change (none / 0) (#89)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:17:42 AM EST
    But his voting record is consistent regarding cabinet conformation votes, and that is according to his stated principal. Judges he is pretty good on. He let a few slip through, but by and large he is not being deferential at all.

    Here is his voting record.

    Pretty good, imo.

    And of course he is great on the war.

    Parent

    Here is what Obama said (none / 0) (#90)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:26:47 AM EST
    On the topic:

    In such circumstances, attacks on Pat Leahy, Russ Feingold and the other Democrats who, after careful consideration, voted for Roberts make no sense. Russ Feingold, the only Democrat to vote not only against war in Iraq but also against the Patriot Act, doesn't become complicit in the erosion of civil liberties simply because he chooses to abide by a deeply held and legitimate view that a President, having won a popular election, is entitled to some benefit of the doubt when it comes to judicial appointments. Like it or not, that view has pretty strong support in the Constitution's design.

    Benefit of the doubt.  Deference.  Elections have consequences.  Whatever words one chooses to describe it is OK by me.

    Lets just give ourselves pats on the back for being able to discuss this without smearing the person we disagree with as Bush-lite or something stupid and ignorant like that.

    Parent

    Ugh! (none / 0) (#148)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:04:20 AM EST
    And you think I ought to write my senator?  That's him!

    Parent
    Feingold (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by tek on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:06:30 AM EST
    is a capitulator.  He's like Hagel, he comes out swinging and then votes with the neoCons (not as often).

    Parent
    Feingold as President? (none / 0) (#125)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:14:38 AM EST
    This says all you need to know about the thinking process at work.

    Parent
    Feingold as VP (none / 0) (#110)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:24:08 AM EST
    would be a permanent thorn in Obama's conscience.  I don't think Obama will sign up for that.


    Parent
    sorry, but a black-Jewish ticket is (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by NJDem on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:34:34 PM EST
    not gunna happen (IMO)

    Because it might hurt us in. . .Georgia? (4.25 / 8) (#9)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:37:10 PM EST
    Heh.

    Parent
    All I can say is that it's too bad that (5.00 / 10) (#10)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:37:47 PM EST
    Senator Obama has chosen to take his cues from Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer instead of from Russ Feingold.

    If I were Russ Feingold, I would not be holding my breath waiting for a possible President Obama to make any inaugural address promises to undo the constitutional breaches the Bush administration has committed, especially when, in all likelihood, Obama will be one of the Senators voting for the compromise - or voting "no" so late that it won't matter.

    That would really tear it for me. (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Jake Left on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:41:56 PM EST
    If he holds off until passage is assured and then votes an ass-covering No, he is worthless. All talk, no walk.

    Parent
    That would "tear" it for you because ... (1.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Tortmaster on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:57:30 PM EST
    ... McCain is going to vote "no" on a FISA compromise and attempt to fillibuster it?

    You do know that McCain's top campaign staff is literally infested with telecom lobbyists, don't you?  

    Parent

    You seem to be under the impression that (5.00 / 21) (#23)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:11:32 PM EST
    being upset with Obama for either voting "for" the FISA compromise, or voting "no" so late that it doesn't matter, is an automatic approval of whatever it is that McCain would do, instead of realizing that we can be upset or disgusted about what Obama does or doesn't do without reference to McCain at all.

    Not everything is comparative - sometimes things are just wrong because they are wrong - and that someone on the other side is just as wrong doesn't lessen the extent of it.

    If you want Obama to do the right thing, you have to stop making it okay for him to do the wrong thing.

    Parent

    May I suggest that instead of criticizing Obama (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by Newt on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:13:37 PM EST
    or his supporters, you, and all TalkLeft comments take some action to prevent the passage of FISA in the Senate.

    Parent
    You mean like calling Obama's office (5.00 / 18) (#33)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:34:01 PM EST
    to plead for him to do the right thing?  Or calling and e-mailing and faxing our own Senators?

    I would like to suggest that Obama start listening to his constituents, and to the people whose president he wants to be, show some leadership and the courage of the convictions that trip so easily off his tongue.

    Seems like a fair request to me.

    Parent

    I gave a suggestion in my other comment (5.00 / 8) (#37)
    by Newt on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:49:10 PM EST
    and I've been working all day on the phone and a variety of blogs trying to convince Obama supporters that this issue is a place where Obama should make a stand.  

    I think a huge groundswell from Obama supporters requesting/expecting the Senate and especially Obama to fight the immunity on the basis of the need for discovery
    would sway the Senate.  I've also written to a bunch of Impeachment groups, such as the PEN and others, and even some right wing sites because conservatives who are anti-government get this kind of stuff pretty well.  

    The legislation is dangerous.  More people are engaged these days because of the close primary.  This is a good time to reach out and use our connections to make a stand against it.


    Parent

    Thank you. (5.00 / 6) (#44)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:55:20 PM EST
    It is sad that Obama supporters need to be convinced though :(

    Parent
    Young Democrats don't understand the complexities (none / 0) (#48)
    by Newt on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:02:16 PM EST
    yet.  That goes for young Hillary supporters as well.  They haven't been paying attention, they only recently got caught up in the primary race.  They have a lot to learn.  

    But it's a huge amount of energy if we can tap it.

    Parent

    You should be wrangling them to pester the Senate (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Ellie on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:24:02 AM EST
    Then a shorter A-to-B route is to tell oPods why multiple sock-puppet ID's on HRC-friendly sites -- or those not still actively engaged in the Derangement -- with the intent to pester is at odds with helping them Move On and intelligently promote Obama's platform (whatever he stands for in his head this week.)

    HRC supporters seem quite capable of assessing these issues and acting upon them.

    It's time the for the contingent that claimed to be in front to turn and face that way, and unleash teh awesome Pester Power on the Senate instead of, you know, buzzing useless pap about "healing" on people who aren't politically sick.

    Sickened, yeah, who wouldn't be?

    Parent

    60+ votes and filibuster proof (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:24:17 PM EST
    As it has already been suggested in the print media that the senate is filibuster proof with upcoming YEA votes on the FISA bill, don't use up too many of those long distance minutes. I'm afraid this is a done deal regardless of what Obama, or Clinton, or Feingold might do.

    The blogs are all blustery over it, but negotiated compromises (they do call it that) are usually sure things or they would never be brought to the floor for a vote.

    Parent

    No need to have 60 to filibuster; GOP always do it (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by Ellie on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:32:24 AM EST
    This is a false metric that the Dems keep citing as an excuse not to act courageously or act at all.

    The Repugs get everything they want whether in the majority or minority because they hang together and Dems keep ambling over in big clumps to help them do it.

    Senator Obama has repeatedly stated and shown he prefers to help out the GOP dominant status quo rather than challenge it.

    This is his moment to provide a shining example of the Change he promised. If he won't do it meaningfully by now, and on this particular issue, he won't suddenly be a courageous President should that opportunity materialize.

    Parent

    where does hillary stand on this (none / 0) (#99)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 07:59:45 AM EST
    hmmm, awfully quiet over there in NY.  Of course Obama should LEAD and filibuster, but where is Hillary?  

    Parent
    you know most of us worked ourselves to (5.00 / 6) (#68)
    by hellothere on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:13:13 AM EST
    death on this very situation before and numerous others where we hoped they would listen. the emails, phone calls, letters, even personal visits to their offices were made. guess what? they went ahead and did what they wanted. so please don't talk down to us. we have every right to criticize obama and the rest of the democrats on this issue. it isn't a case of our just sitting around our computers whining all the time you know.

    Parent
    Hello there, hellothere (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Newt on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:31:32 AM EST
    I don't mean to talk down to anyone who has worked, is working, or will work in the future to effect positive change in our democracy.

    There are plenty of readers and posters who have not participated in fighting these attacks on our Constitution and Bill of Rights.  If they can benefit from my comments and suggestions, then I will continue to post them.

    Please trust that I have the utmost respect for all who try to make our country a better place.

    Parent

    thanks, it is good to know that a dedicated (none / 0) (#83)
    by hellothere on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:49:41 AM EST
    citizen is working for our rights.

    Parent
    you forgot to say /snark (none / 0) (#88)
    by Newt on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:15:41 AM EST


    Parent
    it wasn't snark. it is sincere. (none / 0) (#149)
    by hellothere on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:56:33 AM EST
    no matter what the political thinking is, i want citizens to hold our politcans' feet to the fire and you are doing that, thank goodness.

    Parent
    why should we have to beg and plead (5.00 / 6) (#114)
    by Josey on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:38:26 AM EST
    with a CONSTITUTIONAL lawyer to do the right thing regarding the Constitution????
    Oh wait -- Obama's positions and votes AFTER he became a U.S. senator are the most problematic.

    Parent
    i don't want us to beg. i want us to (none / 0) (#150)
    by hellothere on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:57:58 AM EST
    hold them accountable in the most serious way. and josie you are right it is sad beyond belief that we are supposed to hold our noses and vote and/or beg. i can't and won't do that. i'll hold them accountable.

    Parent
    Calling My Senators Would Be Very Effective (4.92 / 14) (#43)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:54:45 PM EST
    My Republican Senator Kit Bond who's just giggling he's so happy with what he got to quote Feingold. Or how about my NEW Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill who has supported and voted for Bush's position on each and every FISA bill that has come to the floor.

    McCaskill is a prime example of the NEW Democratic Party member who values her shiny bipartisan creds more than the wishes of the voters who contributed and worked to get her Senate seat. She got the votes because she had a D after her name and I'm sure that she thinks by the time she is up for reelection people will still consider her the lesser of two evils and continue to vote the D no matter what she does.  

    Parent

    I'm looking forward to see (4.66 / 3) (#51)
    by Rhouse on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:11:36 PM EST
    how Arlen Specter (R-PA) and Bob Casey (D-PA) are going to vote on this, since Specter has been making noises that he doesn't like the immunity clause.

    Parent
    Good point (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:25:20 PM EST
    My guess is that Casey will watch for Specter's vote, and then vote with him.

    Parent
    Specter? (5.00 / 7) (#56)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:35:32 PM EST
    Specter is one of those that loves all the bluster and then always backs down. Every time he starts to knock heads with the White House I think, wow Specter is going to take a stand this time, and then he goes limp like a 90 year old that lost his viagra.

    He loves to make the headlines with his principled stands, but when push comes to shove he goes home to take a nap. He's always threatening to huff and puff and blow the house down but mostly he just blows bubbles.

    I believe I have set a TL record for useless metaphors.

    Parent

    No, no (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:41:44 PM EST
    I thought they were excellent metaphors!  Especially the last one, the mental image of which gave me the giggles.

    Parent
    Specter is willing to vote... (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Alec82 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:13:46 AM EST
    ...for legislation that he believes (and announces publicly) is unconstitutional, openly stating that he hopes a court will strike it down.

     So much for that oath he took...

    Parent

    Well then look up some other state's zip codes (none / 0) (#46)
    by Newt on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:58:42 PM EST
    and make up a fake address to use when you call Senators who would possibly take a stand against this.  

    When the people lead...

    Parent

    I'll take McCaskill (none / 0) (#98)
    by stxabuela on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 07:53:30 AM EST
    If you'll take John Cornyn . . . please.  

    Parent
    Did that. Doing that. (none / 0) (#168)
    by Jake Left on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:35:23 PM EST
    Called fifteen senators. Emailed every Democrat and, just for the futile heck of it, wrote to the two ditto head senators from my state. Still have the right to complain here if I want.

    Parent
    "just as wrong" (1.25 / 4) (#25)
    by Tortmaster on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:13:51 PM EST
    You wrote "just as wrong." Care to reconsider that language? Will you also vigorously defend all the telecom lobbyists on McCain's campaign staff?  

    Parent
    I'm not defending McCain in any way, (5.00 / 13) (#32)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:29:46 PM EST
    shape or form, and am certainly not defending any telecom lobbyists.  Defending McCain is not automatically the flip side of criticizing Obama - a concept that really should not be all that hard for you to grasp.

    If Obama and McCain vote the same - assuming either one actually shows up to vote - and they both vote for the compromise bill - that makes them both wrong.  Period.  It doesn't elevate one over the other.  Obama gets no break just because he has a "D" after his name.  Every other Senator who votes for the bill will also be wrong - as will every Republican.

    Wrong is wrong.  Is that simple enough for you?


    Parent

    So... (4.75 / 4) (#31)
    by santarita on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:28:16 PM EST
    assuming that Sen. Obama has no telecom lobbyists on his campaign staff, and assuming that Sen. Obama caves in on retroactive immunity, what will his excuse be?

    Parent
    Two wrongs don't make a right (4.50 / 2) (#29)
    by cymro on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:26:06 PM EST
    What aspect of this well-known proverb don't you understand?

    Parent
    Also, Anne, you may ... (1.20 / 5) (#26)
    by Tortmaster on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:23:33 PM EST
    ... want to consider whether you are prejudging the situation in haste. Do you know what Barack Obama is thinking on the issue of FISA? Do you have complete access to his battle plans? Do you even know for sure how he'll vote? A lot of people have thought they knew what Barack Obama was all about, but they were wrong.

    Along the same lines, do we know what Obama gained from the temporary setback? Of course not. This is one hand in a long poker game, and our side (or at least my side -- the Democratic side) still has most of the chips.

    Now, before I'm accused of chattering, it's off to watch Seinfeld. G'night! ;)


    Parent

    Obama's battle plans?! (5.00 / 7) (#28)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:25:51 PM EST
    And you accused ME of making a snarky comment elsewhere. Well done, sir, well done!

    Parent
    WHOAAAA... (5.00 / 15) (#42)
    by fly on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:53:20 PM EST
    It seems to me so many excuses are being made for Obama over FISA..Those are my constitutional rights you are making excuses for..

    Let me play mom here..when my teenager wanted to do what his friends were doing ..and i said no..no meant no...My son could tell me till pigs fly over the moon..
    what his friend joey was doing and it did not change my rules..and what i believed was right or wrong for my child.

    I don't care what McCain is doing..i care about what the man who is the "presumptive nominee of my party is doing, period.

    IT'S CALLED RESPONSIBILITY..OBAMA HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO THAT CONSTITUTION OF MINE..

    STOP PASSING THE BUCK FOR HIM.. this is giving law breakers a pass after they broke the law..no different than a robber asking for immunity after they robbed the bank..and giving them a free pass...no different that a murderer getting a free pass after committing the murder..it's call rule of law..and one of the foundations of this nation and our constitution.

    There is no excuse..we do not give a free pass to criminal behavior..we hold criminals accountable, as appropriate to the law of this land.

    If we no longer hold those principles to the highest regard, then we have chaos..and just tell me what then makes this country any different than a dictatorship that has run amok of the law???????

    fly

    Parent

    on this we can agree (5.00 / 5) (#93)
    by kempis on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 04:56:40 AM EST
    Tortmaster: A lot of people have thought they knew what Barack Obama was all about, but they were wrong.


    Parent
    another Obamabot mimicing Bushies (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by Josey on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:47:49 AM EST
    >>>>Do you know what Barack Obama is thinking on the issue of FISA? Do you have complete access to his battle plans?

    Like Bush, Obama has a Grand Plan that we lowly citizens just can't see with our teeny weeny insight.
    That's why Obama has to keep his positions and votes a secret.
    lol


    Parent

    Time to ban Tortmaster (2.33 / 3) (#86)
    by shoephone on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:10:48 AM EST
    He's nothing but a stoopid troll.

    Parent
    and one that doesn't understand (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:01:23 AM EST
    Obama has bundlers who have been kept in the shadows..who may or my not be with the telecoms..who knows ..as they are kept secret!

    As J. Turley said, many many dems in office knew about this program from the get go, and were complicit in the knowledge that this WAS BEING DONE ILLEGALLY..I take that to mean many who are voting affrimative on this were complicit..and i will forever hold them accountable for stealing my constitutional rights and defecating on my rights.
    And i will put all my money and work to my last days seeing them removed from office.

    They all swore an oath to defend my constitution.

    They have become the enemy "within" when they do otherwise..no matter what letter is behind their name.

    I take very seriously those words.."WE THE PEOPLE"
    and i will work diligently to see that those who sign that FISA immunity, get removed from office.

    After all, I am American , before any party.

    fly

    Parent

    FYI (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by tek on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:08:49 AM EST
    Obama supporters constantly saying that we have to vote for Obama because McCain is scary can just save their breath.  We KNOW what McCain is.  The more scary thing is not knowing what, exactly, Obama is.  Or, seeing that Obama does not keep his word, just as Bush didn't, is pretty unsettling.

    Parent
    you could not be more right Tek.. (1.00 / 0) (#118)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:51:00 AM EST
    Thank you.

    It's the devil you know vs. the devil you don't have any clue about because he hid all his papers!!

    fly

    Parent

    Rick Davis, for example, ... (1.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Tortmaster on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:04:24 PM EST
    ... co-founded a lobbying firm whose clients have included Verizon and SBC Telecommunications. Yeah, if you really care about FISA reform, vote McCain! /snark

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/21/AR2008022101131_pf.html

    Parent

    Dumb (5.00 / 6) (#45)
    by talex on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:57:26 PM EST
    it's not really the lobbyists who are the problem. It is the politicians who take their money and let them write policy.

    Lobbying is American. It's part of free speech if you think about it. We ALL have the right to try to influence our representatives. Hell most people here have donated through MoveOn or some other organization that advocates. And advocating is no different than lobbying because what lobbyists do is advocate and donate money to Reps which is exactly what many Liberal organizations do.

    That is what cracks me up about Obama's lobbying game. He has no influence on what people do in congress or who they can talk to. And what? Obama is not going to meet with Telecom Execs and Energy Execs as President? What a load of bull he pull on you people. And you eat it up. Dumb.

    Parent

    Pretty Lazy Tort (none / 0) (#130)
    by talex on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:35:39 AM EST
    You down rate my response to your post but yet you have no rebuttal, nothing to say with why you disagree with what I said. That is weak man. I guess you don't really disagree with a thing I said but a button on your screen is so easy to use for sour grapes huh?

    Parent
    tortmaster..what part of democratic complicity of (none / 0) (#162)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:11:57 PM EST
    illegal wire tapping do you not understand?????

    Jonathan Turley was on Countdown and said that some top democrats were complicit in the law breaking..and wire tapping of Americans illegally..
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25274098#25274098

    My take is, anyone who gives these criminals a pass is a traitor to our constitution  and to this nation..i don't care what letter they have behind their name.

    Everyone in office takes an oath to that constitution..each and every dem or republican that signs the deal on this FISA immunity has betrayed their oath to the people of this nation and to the constitution of this nation..in my book they are traitors!

    THIS GUY HAS BETRAYED EVERYONE OF HIS SUPPORTERS.

    Not just with FISA but with NAFTA, and with Campaign finance, stealing the votes of two states...where does it stop??????

    I will keep asking this until one of you obamatrollposters  answers me..

    Today it was my vote stolen, and my rights, what rights are you willing to give up.and do you really give a darn anyway..i think not..you care more about one candidate than this nation, and her democracy.

    fly

    fly

    Parent

    He Won't Vote No (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by talex on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:58:14 PM EST
    Maybe inside he'd really like to if you believe his past rhetoric on the subject (IF). But if he voted no then the Repubs would tear him a new one on National Security and he might lose the WH. Can't have that happen just for principles and the Constitution.

    Politico says the vote may come as early as Wednesday with a 'Show' vote that won't pass to strip immunity so Obama can vote No on it. Pure theater.

    Parent

    And a general election ... (1.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Tortmaster on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:25:51 PM EST
    ... candidate moving to the center surprises you, why?

    Parent
    It doesn't surprise me in the least. (5.00 / 8) (#30)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:26:27 PM EST
    I expect him to throw SS under the bus before Nov.

    Parent
    Have Demcratic voters have now come to the place (5.00 / 15) (#35)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:36:57 PM EST
    where helping Bush cover up his illegal acts and dismantling the Constitution is benignly described as moving to the center? Is there anything that you personally believe is a core principle of this country that should never be negotiated away?


    Parent
    which core principles will he stand on? (5.00 / 9) (#38)
    by noholib on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:50:39 PM EST
    I really wish I could ask him directly --what core principles will you stand on Senator Obama?  Which ones will you hold fast to and not reach across the table to seek common ground with Republicans? -- and I wish I could get a direct answer.

    Parent
    when Obama admitted his very different (5.00 / 6) (#73)
    by thereyougo on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:24:41 AM EST
    stance in the primaries on NAFTA vs. after his turnaround when he got the  presumptive nom, and ADMITTED it was politics, you have to think HE WILL SAY ANYTHING to get the presidency.  You can't trust him to stand for what he says, explaining it away at anytime like he seems to do makes it OK,because  he was big enough to admit it!?

    WTF is wrong with this picture? It makes Obama and McCain indistinguishable. ~People will say same old same old.

    Some of us saw it, some are beginning to see it, which is good. The SuperDelegates CAN STILL change their minds.  I suggest we WRITE THEM if they feel this is a very important issue to them as it is for Americans.  

    the litmust test for lots of people will be this vote. If Obama tanks, he and he alone is responsible. I know some people are already viewing him with suspicion as a result. The moondust  is starting to fall off.

    Parent

    Roe v. Wade (none / 0) (#119)
    by Tortmaster on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:57:43 AM EST
    Getting out safely from Iraq. Fighting terrorists where the terrorists are. Funding education. Curtailing lobbyist influence in Washington. Getting universal health insurance. And on and on.

    John McCain stands for: The Iran War.

    Parent

    ahhh please.. take that roe v wade off the table.. (none / 0) (#132)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:40:02 AM EST
    that little gem does not scare us..and that game is older than you are!!..a tired old game indeed..

    and anyway..we fought for those rights as well..and those core principles..only to have them used as leverage by the capitulating dem party against us..won't work anymore..
    ( besides..i can't get PG any longer..the hot flashes attest to that) now that is your problem..my problems are bigger..saving the constitution for my grandchildren to come ..and future generations to come..as our forefathers did so well and these incompetent boobs now are trying to destroy to cover their own sorry butts!

    If you are worried about Roe V Wade..you best stop supporting Obama ..it seems he doesn't give a rats crap about the constitution...or the rights of the people...he proves it daily!

    fly

    Parent

    Some of your talking points (none / 0) (#139)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:01:33 AM EST
    escape me. Getting out of Iraq safely has morphed to "conditions on the ground and what the military advises". Seems like I've heard that song for 6 years now. I'm also not convinced that expanding school vouchers will improve the quality of education in this country. That panders to the evangelican's that don't want their children exposed to the radical teachings in our society! And acording to one of his spokesperson's, Kerry. UHC is off the table. (The Republican's will never allow it to go through). If the party has already given up these importany issues, what's left?

    Parent
    ahhh i think your valid questions are (none / 0) (#161)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:42:13 PM EST
    over his pay scale!!

    Don't wait up tonight for an answer..lol..they have the crap to post but none of the replies that fit the questions!!

    These people are clueless...i only hope when they graduate college and get a real job ..they wake up..to facts..real facts..or they are in for a sorry ride through life!

    Thanks for the dose of reality MMC..
    fly

    Parent

    Ahem. Well I certainly haven't (5.00 / 8) (#39)
    by Grace on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:50:52 PM EST
    which is why I'm having a hard time with some members of the Democratic party these days...

    Destroying the Constitution shouldn't be a value for either party!  

    Parent

    Center?? (5.00 / 10) (#47)
    by talex on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:59:58 PM EST
    Center you say? Where in the hell did you get that? Obama is moving center right - and a hard center right at that.

    You didn'd see him on Fox News Sunday a few months ago didn't you. That was no lefty talking.

    Parent

    moving to the center? is that what you call (5.00 / 7) (#74)
    by hellothere on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:25:15 AM EST
    it? hmm, i can think of some other terms but won't use them out of respect for jeralyn. but don't think that we fall for any "move to the center". sir, the center is full of many indpendents who dispise those who take our liberties. i am in the center and don't appreciate your reference.

    Parent
    If you (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by tek on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:10:13 AM EST
    like a centrist candidate, then why all the hullabaloo about the Clintons being centrist?  Hypocrisy, thy name is Obama.

    Parent
    moving to the center? You are kidding right??????? (2.00 / 0) (#121)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:08:20 AM EST
    No this is not moving to the center dear,not at all!! Have you read any history books????????
    People have died for those constitutional rights..did you know that?????? rolls eyes here..For hundreds of years..in fact.

    But i am sure you and Obama don't know what that sacrifice is about do you??????? Heck Obama doesn't even hold hearings about Afganistan and those that are sacrificing right now..today ..yoo hooo...

    Do you have one of those shiny Ipods Obama gives out???? hmmm...i bet you do.

    Look here sonny...we the people know when our rights are being stolen..we get it..we don't compromise our principles, like the ipod kids do..we believe in them , many fought for them and many wore the uniform to protect those rights, maybe you and Obama need to find out what sacrifice is all about, before you tell us all about YOUR IDEA  of those rights ...and that it is merely moving to the center..do you even get it that the center doesn't want their rights stolen either??????/ Do you even try to undestand this???????
    How easily you can compromise these rights..it is rather pathetic, and it is problematic when  some have never sacrificed a damn thing ..and think they have all the answers!

    ..for me there is no compromise..my principles are not for sale.

    I sit here typing with a picture of my grandfather in front of me..with his uniform on..a Navy Uniform..and on his cap is U.S.S. ARIZONA.. he was so young..he had been an Orphan..so he joined the Navy at age 16..

    This was in WWI..he left his eye on that ship as a gunner...and i remember his glass eye as a child.

    My son, as a college student got to raise a Flag on the memorial for his great grandfather, at Pearl Harbor.

    My grandfather and my father and my father in law and mother in law and my husband did not wear the unform of this nation to see someone , with so little experience, steal constitutional rights away from Americans to cover law breakers asses.

    fly

    Parent

    Brutal and refreshing honesty (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by aquarian on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:00:40 PM EST
    in a stinking sea of of pols being pols.

    Wait? (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:30:36 PM EST
    Feingold isn't a Pol?

    Parent
    somteimes they shed the sludge (none / 0) (#94)
    by aquarian on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 06:52:23 AM EST
    and for a brief time turn into a rainbow fish.

    Parent
    Criminal Wiretapping Is NOT OK (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Newt on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:11:29 PM EST
    Now is the time to get the Impeachment people hammering our Dem senators.  Or just get a bunch of Democrats doing some Action on this.

    Here's a link to start with, and feel free to forward it to friends and relatives.

    Submit this action form to your members of congress & your local paper.

    http://www.usalone.com/no_following_orders.php

    Obama should be straight up leading on this (5.00 / 4) (#58)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:39:20 PM EST
    It's time we stopped this farce of newly having to beg, with each impending foregone capitulation, Senators to honor minimally their first duty to uphold and defend the Constitution.

    Think about that. Why do we urgently need to do this every d@mn time?

    When Feingold held up his blackberry and listed who could illicitly be monitored, he also explicitly laid out the blowback that will come of this latest grotesque gift to a corrupt administration and its corporate cronies.

    It turns honest law-abiding people into liars and crooks as the default, for the purpose of bestowing the cover of virtue on those who knowingly lied and behaved criminally.

    It deprives people engaging in daily personal and business activities of the means of knowing whether merely doing so turns us into "terrorists" and criminals.

    It reduces our ability to conduct business with integrity to flying in the dark, and obliterates any meaningful ability to contest the negative repercussions and recover damages.

    I know for a fact that this shatters the foundations of many contracts I've signed during the Bush era regarding conscientious handling of unique creative properties (my own and others') and rendering vulnerable my material assets, such as they are, long into the future.

    It turns group efforts into potentially criminal enterprises open to yet further unprovoked monitoring, with no firewalls to prevent government agencies or corporations from sharing  ill-gotten private information amongst themselves.

    On the political side, I don't have to be wearing tinfoil to assume that this power has already been (ab)used and will be applied against Dems in the GE.

    Seriously, does anyone think Bush et al capable of restraining themselves from partisan abuse of these powers that Feingold asked current presidential candidates to promise in his or her inaugural address?

    "I will renounce the lawless claims of the previous administration."

    Parent

    stealing my vote and votes of millions wasn't ok (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:18:59 AM EST
    either, but Obama and his surrogates had no problem with doing just that..and millions upon millions of Americans have accepted this man and are ok with the fact that this man had to steal votes to become the nominee..as i have said for over a year now about stealing my vote..today it is my rights , tommorrow it is yours, which right are you willing to give up???????

    Think very seriously about that.

    Now people are getting upset with Obama because he is attacking your rights????
    What rights will it be tommorrow that this man thinks he can steal from more and more Americans???????
    I find this man dangerous, even more so than Bush..Bush was more of a Puppet..this guy is much smarter than Bush...

    A coup was committed in the Dem party, and if there are still people in this country and party that don't see it..then you don't want to see it.

    It is that simple.

    fly

    Parent

    Bush stole my rights. McCain stole them. (none / 0) (#145)
    by Newt on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:44:18 AM EST
    I don't think Obama is attacking my rights, any more than Hillary Clinton is attacking my rights.  

    I just want BOTH of them, as well as every other Dem in Congress to fight for my rights.

    Parent

    every dem that signs the immunity deal is (none / 0) (#159)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:32:06 PM EST
    not only attacking your rights , they are stealing them! Too Bad you don't understand or recognize that. How sad.

    fly

    Parent

    Jeez fly (none / 0) (#163)
    by Newt on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:59:28 PM EST

    Too Bad you don't understand or recognize that. How sad.

    Do you not understand that I want Dems to fight the telecom immunity? The Senate hasn't voted yet.  I'm trying to get them to filibuster.  

    Why the heck are you implying I want them to give immunity to criminals or that I don't understand that capitulating on FISA is an attack on our rights?  Did you even read my posts?

    Parent

    how is giving immunity to criminals (none / 0) (#160)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:37:45 PM EST
    fighting for your rights..that is stealing them from you..and giving those rights to the criminals...i guess that is ok with you..it is not with me! Not now..not ever.

    fly

    Parent

    i admire your dedication and i hope (none / 0) (#75)
    by hellothere on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:26:24 AM EST
    you continue to nail those who will take our rights.

    Parent
    Thank you Hellothere..but i have been blessed.. (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:10:10 AM EST
    It is I who thank you and everyone else willing to fight for what is right..and fight against those who are wrong..and who would destroy our constitution and our republic..

    I have been blessed because for a lifetime as a flight crew i have been fortunate to go to many incredible places in my lifetime..i have stood where the Magna Carta was originated from and heard the history of those who died to make it possible..i have stood in Normandy ..many times and looked at the graves of young innocent lives that were lost ..they were gallant lives..of such youth..for others greed and power hungry evil. I stood in German gun stations  and looked over the horizon and looked where my father in law climbed the cliffs..and so many others with him. I watched my own son raise a flag at Pearl Harbor  at the USSArizona museum for his great grandfather..

    I have flown MAC flights to get Americans out of Harms way in other countries when unrest or tragedy was happening and i have many friends who have risked their lives flying those flights totally volunteer into dangerous places , at their own risk mind you, not for fame or fortune, most people never know about those hero's....but  for other Americans lives..

    So to cut to the chase..and not bore you, i believe i am luckier than most , as i have seen so much in my lifetime , that i appreciate  our constitution and our rights , more than maybe others might or might not..I KNOW HOW LUCKY I AM AND MY CHILDREN ARE TO HAVE GROWN UP WITH THESE PROTECTIONS UNDER OUR CONSTITUTION... i know a little about the sacrifice of those before us that protected those rights for us.

    What i feel saddest about is that this younger generation are so willing to give those rights up..and i wonder..why?????? because some were bought off so cheaply with new Ipods..........or some other such junk..or total ignorance..or never having to have sacrificed anything for any principles..i worry about their lack of principles..i worry deeply about that..or is nit lack of historical education?????

    I know their manners suck..i have seen that up front and quite disturbingly..

    I worry now more than anytime in my life about this incredible republic of ours ..in the hands of those with so little knowledge  of how we got here and what it will take to protect this incredible fragile "idea".. of democracy..

    For these keyboard Warriors for a candidate..who have never sacrificed a damn thing to tell the rest of us to blow off..get over it..and worse..oh and believe me, i have been called the "c" word many times in the past 6 months..i didn't realize anyone used that word any longer..but i sure have had my fill of it lately...

    Oh and i worked volunteer for Edwards in serveral states....not for Hillary..

    But one thing i know throughout my lifetime..truth does come to the surface, no matter how hard some try to suppress it..it may not come when we want it to..but it does surface..and come to the top..

    But it is incombant of all of us ..to fight to keep our rights intact..

    remember people fought and died for those rights..and sacrificed all for those rights..

    I will hold each and every individual who stole me vote for this primary responsible..i will put every dime i have to removing them from the postions they hold...and i have a long memory.

    But the vote of mine that was stolen, was your vote as well..because when they did it to me , they in essence did it to you and made a mockery of the democratic process and made it easier for the next time ...

    and that leads to where we are today..Obama and FISA, Obama and NAFTA, AND OBAMA ON CAMPAIGN FINANCE..WHERE DOES IT END??????????

    today it was my rights..tommorrow yours..which right are you willing to give up??????

    fly

    Parent

    Again, thanks! (none / 0) (#146)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:54:03 AM EST
    I haven't evacuated people in danger, and no one I know died 9/11.  A child, I bought savings stamps, collected tinfoil and grease, and studied maps of the WWII frontlines.  My classmates fought in Korea

    But I have, like you, stood at Runnymede and I saw the Magna Charta at Salisbury.  I was awed by Pearl Harbor.  I showed my son the hospital on Oahu, the pass thru which the zeros flew, and we walked through Punchbowl to find Ernie Pyle's grave.  I visited the Normandy beaches and read the many thank you notes from visiting Europeans.  I walked through Dachau and through the Frank house with my son. On his own, my son spoke with Germans and Austrians who told him why they had no choice but to go to war because they believed in one man.

    My son wrote a high school essay about some of these things he had seen.  And he ended with a quote from Pogo: "We have met the enemy and he is us."

    Parent

    and i salute you and thank you Molly Pitcher.. (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:59:18 PM EST
    sorry to say i ask kids today what they know about historical events that have shaped our democracy and our precious UNITED STATES.. , and i get blank stares back..we can teach our own, as many of us have, but so many live uneducated to the sacrifice that has made this nation what she is!

    My husband and son still talk about one day we were walking around a small little town in the South of France and how this little old gent  was walking his dog and he heard us talking and asked if we were Americans,..we said yes and he kissed all of our cheeks..he couldn't speak a word of English..and i have limited French..but we understood enough to know  , that many still wish to thank our parents who fought for the freedom of others..

    I wish we could mke the young ones today understand ..the gift they have in that constitution ..and that nothing in it should be given away for the benefit of a few people..

    Those rights have the blood of others attached to them. People who have paid the ultimate price for each and every one of those rights.

    Thak you Molly Pitcher..

    fly

    Parent

    thanks for your comments. (none / 0) (#151)
    by hellothere on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:04:06 PM EST
    i too love history and so look with despiar on the ignorance and arrogance i see too often. people standing up for what they believe should be celebrated by the media and so called pundits. but instead what do we get, defame, blame, and flame.

    Parent
    If they were all dead they would have (5.00 / 8) (#36)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:38:31 PM EST
    more fight to them. Remember, Ashcroft lost to a dead man.

    If Hillary and Obama both state that (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by Newt on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:06:27 PM EST
    they will filibuster FISA, and then follow through on it, two things could happen:

    1)Obama exhibits the leadership he must show to win disaffected Hillary supporters.  The Change would be real, convincing and oh, so American.  
    2) Hillary shows she has more spine than Harry Reid, positioning herself for advancement past senior senators to take over the role of Senate Majority Leader during Obama's presidency.  Reason enough for Hillary supporters and Hillary's donors to get behind Obama.  

    That would be my unity dream team.

    Filibuster is dead in the water (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:41:06 PM EST
    As they most likely have the 60 votes in the bag, a filibuster is just talk and wouldn't even begin.

    Oh for the days of old when one upstanding senator could go on and on and keep something from advancing to a vote. It made for good theater with Jimmy Stewart.

    Parent

    remedy: TERM LIMITS (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by thereyougo on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:32:55 AM EST
    they've gotten too comfy at the top.

    I'm sorry too many lifers in the Congress does not make for progressive politics.

    The average age in the senate is 60 something. Strom Thurman was carried out of there on  a stretcher at 90 something, Pete Dominici walked around the Hart Bldg in his pj's. Teddy Kennedy is very sick. Robert Byrd, Ted Stevens, on and on......even my Senator Feinstein at 70s is old. Apologies to those I might offend, but at a certain age rigidity sets in.

    Parent

    please understand this (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:33:12 AM EST
    Many of us are old enough andmature enough to know this man is to inexperienced to be the leader of this nation, i don't care what he does , he can not change my mind in any way, i know too much about him and nothing about him, as he has hidden many of his records, that does not speak well for anyone running for president.. to me..

    My co-workers died on 9/11 ..i take this job of president extremely serious..i don't want a damn beer with a president and i don't want one who only responsibly bought his first home two years ago..and did it in a way most of us would go to jail for or have the home taken away from us..

    I want someone seasoned, that knows right from wrong, who will be smart enough to have a very serious grasp of national security..real national security , not this nonsense you are being given an illusion of.

    I don't want a president by coup..have we all not had enough of that????
    What really are all of our principles???? We are having this guy shoved dwon our throats by college kids??????Oh please, i raised one of them and have one staying with me right now ( for a friend) and she can't get out of bed before 2 pm and she can't even fix herself something to eat for cripes sake...and i haven't even mentioned that she doesn't know how to make a bed..or get dishes into a dishwashwer..I have two in fact next to the sink!

    I was a flight crew for one of the 9/11 airlines..for 33 years..and took early retirement to go out and speak to the American People and get the truth out there..about what real security would be.

    My neighbor lost their 28 year old son on 9/11 and the Jersey gals live close to me and i have through the years helped them out..

    I can not sit here and read the nonsence and see another incompetant person be put in my white house without speaking out responsibly.

    Again i ask..today it is my rights tommorrow yours..Spying on innocent Americans helps no one with National Security.

    In fact, i would say it slows it up.

    This Fisa immunity gives a free pass to this and anyone in this government immunity to data mine..on you..it does nothing for national security.

    fly

    Parent

    Dead on! (none / 0) (#142)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:24:14 AM EST
    Thank you.  (And since I don't care to be dead, I join you: "I can not sit here and read the nonsence and see another incompetant person be put in my white house without speaking out responsibly."

    Parent
    Thank you Molly Pitcher..in fact my hometown (none / 0) (#147)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:59:45 AM EST
    county is the place of Molly Pitcher..

    and we had the largest number of victims of 9/11 and loss of life from that tragic day.

    Molly Pitcher
    snip:

    Best Known As: Brave water-carrying woman during the Revolutionary War
    A legendary figure of the American Revolutionary War, Molly Pitcher was most likely Mary Ludwig Hays McCauley, a resident of Pennsylvania who, in 1822, was awarded an annuity by the Pennsylvania assembly for her service during the fight for independence. There are many versions of her heroic actions during the Battle of Monmouth on 28 June 1778, but the most common is that Mary helped American troops fend off British troops, first by bringing water to the revolutionaries during the battle (earning her the nickname "Molly Pitcher"),

    http://www.answers.com/topic/molly-pitcher

    Parent

    Well, Obama's going to be our next President (none / 0) (#144)
    by Newt on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:38:46 AM EST
    and we all seem to agree on the dangers of the FISA & retroactive immunity, so I think we need to continue to hold Congress members' feet to the fire.

    Republican leaders always wave the Constitution to bolster their credentials, fight gun control and demand religion be allowed in schools.  Well now the rank and file Repub have a strong belief in the Constitution, which puts them on our side of this issue.

    If anyone here is on right wing mailing lists, feel free to start email chains with these links on it asking them to contact Senators.  Maybe with Obama's outreach to evangelicals it would help if some of them to demand he resist the undermining of our Constitution.


    Parent

    or not.....just saying........ (none / 0) (#156)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:08:23 PM EST


    Parent
    Feingold Was Bush Enabler Spineless (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:26:40 PM EST
    Capitulator on confirming Roberts.

    D'uh!

    A spot-on headline. (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:55:28 PM EST


    I think the Dems in DC could use (5.00 / 5) (#87)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:14:26 AM EST
    some learnin' about the act of enabling and how to stop. Perhaps some al-anon mtgs?

    Parent
    Madame Speaker is leading the (none / 0) (#153)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:15:37 PM EST
    group.  And I don't think they are listening to Feingold.

    Parent
    Don't forget... (5.00 / 15) (#70)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:14:14 AM EST
    ... that Obama did all of the following:

    (1) praised Ronald Reagan and the way he brought clarity, dynamism, and entrepreneurship back to America,

    (2) praised the GOP as being better than the Dems on a "whole host of issues",

    (3) ran hard against the Clinton-Edwards universal health care plan using Harry-and-Louise tactics,

    (4) said that the problems with Washington are the fault of both Democrats and Republicans, and

    (5) described the Clinton presidency as if it were a second Great Depression

    while trying to get the votes of Democrats.

    What did we expect him to do once he was trying to get the votes of Republicans?

    Feingold is golden. (5.00 / 10) (#71)
    by RosieScenario on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:16:17 AM EST
    He's one of the very best in Washington.  Along with Senator Bernie Sanders.  And I deeply miss Senator Paul Wellstone, RIP.

    The headline says it all.  It's been true for over 7 years.  A real tragedy for our nation.

    of course the dems fold..... (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 07:05:04 AM EST
    what do you expect from dems when so many of them are conservative dems that might as well be republicans.  That's what happens when you have to nominate these conservative dems in many districts in order to win a seat in congress.  They would be just as comfortable as moderate republicans.

    All I hear on this site is about (none / 0) (#138)
    by zfran on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:58:10 AM EST
    being a dem, being a dem, now you are individualizing everyone who is a dem. A conservative dem may not look at everything the same way a liberal one does, but when only a "D" appears below their name, that makes him just a dem. And, Obama wants those votes along with repub. lites.

    Parent
    But there has to be (none / 0) (#140)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:08:49 AM EST
    a party standard. What is the point of a majority if the only way of maintaining it is to be nothing to anyone? This whole concept of "center" is distracting. Center of what? On this is and Iraq the center wants both stopped. So where's the debate?

    Parent
    I e-mailed both my Illinois Senators (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 07:47:40 AM EST
    I received the following response from Senator Durbin's office"

    "I oppose retroactive immunity for these companies and supported an amendment to the FISA Amendments Act of 2008".

    Hopefully he will continue his opposition. I am still waiting for a response from Obama's office. When this issue came up earlier in the year, the response I got from Obama was very vague with several references to balancing security with rights. But there was no committment from him at that time. I don't expect his to suddenly grow a backbone at this point.

    A vague response from Obama? (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:30:59 AM EST
    Shocking.

    ;)

    Parent

    I find it amazing (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:59:32 AM EST
    That when it comes to gun issues, the Republican's drag out their dusty copy of the Constitution and wave it with their flags. They're also using the first amendment to bring religion into the public arena. But when it comes to this issue they treat the Constitution (like the Geneva Convention) as a "quaint" document. What upsets me about it even more, is that the Democrat's allow them to repeatedly do it.

    "Voted," past tense? (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:20:08 PM EST


    Feingold? (1.00 / 0) (#123)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:10:24 AM EST
    he's a pernicious Obama enabler.

    He new what Obama's style of brave pathfnding leadership was all about when he endorsed Obama.

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#134)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:46:18 AM EST
    Pernicious Obama enabler? Does that mean that he is going to harm Obama's chance of getting the nomination because he is so destructive?

    Feingold is certainly more progressive than your love as well as Obama, if that is what you mean. Obviously you are coming from right of center at the least with your remark.

    Parent

    The Politician i admire the most is Aneurin Bevan. (none / 0) (#166)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 05:02:23 PM EST
    Class act. Feingold is a lilliputian in comparison.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#167)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 05:10:38 PM EST
    And I like Bach, too bad he is dead.

    Parent
    100% correct Salo..thank you!! (none / 0) (#143)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:27:10 AM EST
    someone had to say it..and remember Feingold came out against Edwards ..big time ..i believe it was all planned and a set up..J. Turley has said many dems knew all about the illegal tapping  by the telecoms and did nothing about it..wanna bet Feingold did as well??????????

     He has been a big cheerleader for Obama..and Obama is going to sign off and give immunity for illegal law breaking..

    Where is that rule of law Feingold holds so dear...hahahaha what a joke..this is a good cop, bad cop game being played on the American people..

    Come on Feingold..this dog and pony show doesn't work any longer..except for those who want to believe in the fairy god mother and easter bunny!

    This is an Axelrod master mind game..
    please people wake up before it is too late..we are facing a nightmare if people don't..worse than even Bush!

    fly

    Parent

    Please tell me (none / 0) (#2)
    by CCinNC on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:24:43 PM EST
    he misspoke and meant "in the House".

    Parent
    Well, the have actually capitulated in the Senate (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:27:03 PM EST
    on FISA before, but not on the "compromise."

    Parent
    Whew (none / 0) (#5)
    by CCinNC on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:27:07 PM EST
    Glenn said Feingold "assesses the prospects for defeating it in the Senate" in his remarks.

    Parent
    When (none / 0) (#11)
    by jbradshaw4hillary on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 09:37:49 PM EST
    does anyone know when the senate will begin debate on the compromise
    well.... (5.00 / 8) (#21)
    by p lukasiak on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:09:19 PM EST
    Obama has commitments on Thursdays (meet with DNC Finance Committee w/Clinton) and Friday (campaign in Unity NH on Friday)....

    so my best guess will be thursday and friday.

    Parent

    Heh, you may be right (5.00 / 5) (#41)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 10:52:35 PM EST
    they would also have the big "Unity" appearance to cover it. Media is much more interested in that type of gossipy story vs actual news . . . and of course they will have to over analyze Hillary's every eye blink and pontificate about what it really means and how her supporters are reading her secret signals :)

    Parent
    i got my decoder ring (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 07:06:30 AM EST
    in the mail just the other day so I can tell what she really means now when she says it.  Have you gotten yours yet?  I'm so excited.

    Parent
    Per MyDD Article Referenced (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:08:04 PM EST
    The final Senate vote will likely be Wednesday.


    Parent
    in reality the final vote was taken long (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by hellothere on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:28:13 AM EST
    before it ever appeared on our radar sad to say.

    Parent
    The last person I've seen (none / 0) (#92)
    by Grace on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:53:12 AM EST
    talking politics on the street was an old man dressed in patriotic gear sitting in a bus kiosk on a major street.  He had all kinds of signs and pins that read "LARRY CRAIG IS BEING FRAMED!"  "LARRY CRAIG IS A PATRIOT!"  "LARRY CRAIG NEVER USED THAT BATHROOM!  CALL CONGRESS AND COMPLAIN!"  And stuff like that.  

    I have to admit:  I did think he was a loon.  ;-)

    Dadler which (none / 0) (#115)
    by fly on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:41:44 AM EST
    "FREE SPEECH ZONE" ARE YOU IN???????? I will meet you there!!..sad but true.

    And the young ones today..they care more about their electronics i am afraid..

    again sad but true.

    fly

    George Carlin said that today (none / 0) (#137)
    by zfran on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:54:11 AM EST
    we are being kept busy by playing with our (electronic-type)toys so we are distracted from what our government is really doing. That "they" want us to be playing with our toys and not paying them any attention! HOw true!

    Parent
    they call themselves progressives (none / 0) (#127)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:17:40 AM EST
    That's the omemt they lose.

    They could call themselves Social Democrats and actually have a philosophy.  

    Any chance the USSC will toss this new FISA (none / 0) (#128)
    by Exeter on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:18:56 AM EST
    Bill out?

    crossing eyes and fingers and saying (none / 0) (#152)
    by hellothere on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:06:48 PM EST
    hope so!

    Parent
    It's time you started earning that job, Senator. (none / 0) (#157)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:21:45 PM EST
    Senator Obama, we know how important reaching the White House has become. We know that you're worried about missteps.  We know that some will see a failure to sway congress as a sign of weakness.  We know how long the odds are.

    But Senator, we also know that America's Constitution needs defending now.

    If you want this job you've got to earn it.

    Now.

    "You and I are told increasingly that we have to choose between a left or right, but I would like to suggest that there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down: Up to man's age-old dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order, Or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. And
    regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, Those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course."  -- Ronald W. Reagan.



    Feingold: Democrats Are Bush Enablers | 165 comments (165 topical)

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