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Thursday Evening Open Thread

Our earlier open thread is full, and it seems like people have a lot to vent about today. Here's another thread, all topics welcome, just please keep it civil.

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    Did Obama really say, (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:06:04 PM EST

    I have become a symbol of the possibility of America returning to our best traditions,"


    ?
    According to NoQuarter, he said that in Berlin.

    The Obama camp argues it was out-of-context (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by kempis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:12:27 PM EST
    And others support this version:

    link

    Personally, I think it's too outrageous not to have been taken out of context. Obama gives off an arrogant vibe, but I don't think he's crazy. :)

    Parent

    I'm not saying he is (of course) (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by NJDem on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:20:11 PM EST
    but did you see the tape of him talking about "his" banking cmte?  He said it with such ownership and he's not even on it!  Or his numerous 'no one has done more for X' comments--seems like a pattern to me.  

    Even if he said "my candidacy..." it would have sounded better.  IMO.  

    Parent

    Yeah, I found that "context" later. (1.00 / 0) (#7)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:14:12 PM EST
    Doesn't help a bit.

    Parent
    No, Mark - he said that to members of (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:12:36 PM EST
    Congress with whom he met the other day; I think you misread the quote.

    According to the WaPo:

    The 200,000 souls who thronged to his speech in Berlin came not just for him, he told the enthralled audience of congressional representatives. "I have become a symbol of the possibility of America returning to our best traditions," he said, according to the source.

    Bolding is mine.

    Parent

    No one misread anything (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by CCinNC on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:33:49 PM EST
    You and others here who hate Obama are reading it exactly the way you want to.  The quote was absolutely out of context.

    And I wish I wouldn't see the words "arrogant" and "presumptuous" again.  Look up the word "uppity" on Dictionary.com and see what the synonyms are.  Karl Rove has put out the words arrogant and presumptuous, and the media is happily spewing them.   And now they're here too.  I can't believe it, on a website that purportedly supports the Democrat candidate.

    It's one thing to criticize Obama's policies and positions, as is permitted here, and I have no problem with that. It's another thing to see the constant nastiness presented as "snark," speculation presented as fact, Obama's actions presented as evil/stupid/Hillary-hating with no basis except that some of you hate him.

    I expect someone will ask, "So why are you here?  Go find a blog with other Obamabots."  Have at it.

    Parent

    It was 100% arrogant. Look THAT up (5.00 / 10) (#38)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:39:01 PM EST
    in the dictionary.
    And if you think that bullying by charging racism is going to work here----think again!

    Parent
    I'm not bullying (4.00 / 3) (#46)
    by CCinNC on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:45:55 PM EST
    and am not charging ANYONE with racism, so don't you dare accuse me of that. Some of you have adopted the words "presumptuous" and "arrogant" which are Republican talking points. Go back and read my previous comments. I don't write nastiness. I have loved this site for years but I just can't take this BS. It's heartbreaking what has happened here. I was torn between Clinton and Obama and ended up voting for Obama. If Clinton had won the primary, I'd be fine with that. I don't understand the hate here. I just don't.

    Parent
    Don't be disigenuous. (5.00 / 11) (#48)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:47:41 PM EST
    What do you mean by asking what the synonyms for  "uppity" are? That is a charge of racism.
    People are not stupid on this site, like DK.
    Stop the games.
    If you want to say that people  who won't vote for Obama are racist, go right ahead, but don't pussyfoot around.

    Parent
    I was accusing (2.00 / 1) (#54)
    by CCinNC on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:51:49 PM EST
    some here of adopting Republican talking points, and that's all. I didn't call anyone racist. You don't know me at all. There's no way you could've looked at my previous comments in the few seconds it took you to attack me. I have visited DK 2-3 times and have never posted there. I didn't like it.

    Parent
    You were accusing people here of (5.00 / 9) (#57)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:53:37 PM EST
    adopting RACIST Republican talking points.
    Look, you made yourself perfectly clear.
    Don't shortchange your communication skills.

    Parent
    There's a saying..... (5.00 / 12) (#83)
    by Jjc2008 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:06:02 PM EST
    "What goes around, comes around."  When Michelle and the news media said the word "fairytale" was racist, because Bill used it to describe NOT Obama's run, but Obama's account of his past on Iraq, it was the last straw for many.

    Now this same kind of crap the media gave to Hillary was cheered on by the Obama camp.  Many of us said it then, and I will say it again:  THEY WILL TURN ON OBAMA.  And they have.  They used him to get rid of Senator Clinton, and now they will go along with anything to get rid of him.  Sadly, the Obama camp is playing into their hands.  When Maddow said, "presumptuous" has racist implications I laughed.
    And now you are saying "arrogant" is racist?  George W defines ARROGANT for me....always has.  He is the definition of the arrogant frat boy.  Arrogant has nothing to do with race.  Arrogance can be found in anyone, black, white, brown, male, female.

    Insisting this is about hate is ridiculous.  A lot of it is about sanctimony and hypocrisy.

    Parent

    Forget the arrogant meme. Jack Tapper at (5.00 / 8) (#94)
    by hairspray on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:16:20 PM EST
    Political Punch has called Obama on his race baiting at several campaign stops.  It is all over the news.  Obama says the GOP 'are trying to scare you by saying that I am different and have a funny name.'  Obama has been quoted by several sources.  We saw what he did by making Bill and Hillary racist in much the same way. So it is now 'what goes round comes round.'  I would have prefered that he said "they are trying to scare you by saying I don't have enough experience.." and answered that one.  Oh wait, he couldn't really do that could he?

    Parent
    I thought Obama was arrogant.... (5.00 / 10) (#96)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:17:04 PM EST
    ...from the moment I clapped eyes on him. So I'm supposed to change my opinion that I came to on my own because Republicans share it?

    Parent
    We Have Three More Months (5.00 / 9) (#119)
    by flashman on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:31:23 PM EST
    of every criticism being spun into a racist comment.  We saw that with the farytale comment, the Jesse Jackson comparison, the MLK/LBL story, the 3AM ad, the arrogant/presumptions story, the Brit/Paris ad...  We get it now, either we lavish praise on Obama and show him unfettered love, or else we are racists.  The 'post racial' candidate sets race relations back decades.

    Parent
    exactly (5.00 / 5) (#159)
    by ccpup on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:56:03 PM EST
    and eventually the American People whose votes he actually needs will grow so tired of gingerly stepping around for fear of being called "racist" that they'll just give up altogether and choose to vote for McCain or not vote at all.  Complicated isn't good when angling for votes.

    And at the end of the day, who really wants to have four years of "if you don't support our President, you must be racist"?

    Parent

    what word do you use (5.00 / 7) (#183)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:13:10 PM EST
    for calling a black man arrogant when he is arrogant if you can't use arrogant?  

    Or, is it your position that a black man simply can't be arrogant?

    Does it get any more arrogant than creating your own "presidential seal" after the primary?  HOw many times over the last two or three weeks has he made statements, especially on his world tour, that presumed he was already elected?  That's pretty arrogant.

    Parent

    These are not (5.00 / 4) (#206)
    by sas on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:28:05 PM EST
    racist statements.
    "Obama is unqualified.  He has the thinnest resume of any presidential candidate in our history.  He is not redy or able."

    Therei s no racism there-implied or intended.

    Deal with it.

    Parent

    Yes, your insinuation on "uppity" (5.00 / 10) (#114)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:28:39 PM EST
    was calling out racism.  Admit it or retract it.

    Btw, "uppity" was used on this blog yesterday about Clinton, and the comment wasn't deleted.  So "uppity" is only a no-no about the Big O and not about anyone else?  So . . . that would mean it's okay to call him, but not a woman, b*tchy here?

    Really, it's hard to keep straight all these roolz, too.

    Parent

    I went and looked it up. (none / 0) (#211)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:29:24 PM EST
    It meant presumptuously arrogant. So I looked up presumptuous. It came from a Latin word in the 14th century. I am confused. All 3 words mean what they are to me. I think we are going to have to learn a whole new language.

    Parent
    You ARE bullying (5.00 / 3) (#201)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:26:09 PM EST
    Referring to Rove on TL?

    This is exactly what Cream City addresses elsewhere in this thread.

    So if Rove discusses the budget deficit, and someone here brings up the budget deficit, is that now out of bounds too?

    This is just the sort of ridiculous logic that I simply can't understand how people can fall for.

    You don't get to set the terms of debate on TL.  Only Jeralyn, BTD (in his threads) and TChris do.


    Parent

    You know what's a rove specialty (5.00 / 5) (#217)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:31:50 PM EST
    Propping up an empty suit with character attacks on people who criticize the empty suit.

    For a good couple years they were able to convince people that if they criticized Bush then they were "with the terrorists."

    Now it's race.  If you criticize Obama you are "with the racists."

    Truth be told, I found being called a terrorist sympathizer rather preferrable to being called a race baiter.

    If I absolutely had to say which was worse.

    Parent

    Personally, I think (5.00 / 5) (#52)
    by NJDem on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:51:10 PM EST
    that it's a bit arrogant to believe that you/he symbolize/s all that is great with America.  

    Even in context it can rub people the wrong way or confirm what they thought about the whole tour.

    Someone here had a brilliant post about American forms of acceptable arrogance that I won't try to paraphrase, but it was something like:  John Wayne good; elitist, bad.  Sometime he just comes off like he thinks he's better than everyone else and that will not help him win votes.  That's all I'm sayin'.      

    Parent

    That was me (none / 0) (#205)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:27:48 PM EST
    I was a little bit proud of that one.

    Parent
    Could you put that sentence into a context (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:20:48 PM EST
    where it wouldn't come off as arrogant? Tell what the surrounding comments were since you are so sure it was a statement that has a different meaning when it is IN context.

    BTW, arrogant has been the main descriptor for Obama since he announced he was entering the race for president. It is not a Republican talking point, it is an honest to goodness fact that he comes off as arrogant to many people, democrats and republicans alike.


    Parent

    I didn't do anything except provide (5.00 / 8) (#161)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:57:10 PM EST
    where the comment was allegedly made.  You come charging out of the box classifying any and all as Obama-haters and yet you failed to provide the context you accuse people of missing.

    And I hate to break it to you, but just because you and too many others have decided that certain words must now and forevermore be associated with racism does not mean that I need to or have to excise them from my lexicon.  Neither you nor the Obama campaign are going to bully me into walking on eggshells and questioning every adjective that comes to mind so as to silence any criticism of what Obama says, what he does and how his campaign is being conducted.

    I don't give a tiny rat's a$$ whether Obama is pink, purple or green with yellow polka-dots, and you and the rest of the Do-Not-Disrepect-The-One crowd can take all your indignation and outrage and find a really dark (OMG!  I said "dark!"  That's probably a forbidden word, too!) place to put them.

    You diminish and demean the long and arduous struggle for civil rights by using your handy Roget's thesaurus to imbue ordinary language with racist overtones.

    Really, you should be ashamed.

    Parent

    I felt (5.00 / 2) (#230)
    by Amiss on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:37:50 PM EST
    he was "uppity" "arrogant" and presumptious long before Karl Rove came out with those terms, as I am sure many others have, dont blame this on Rove, he is guilty of enough you dont have to tag him with this one, this one is all on OBAMA.

    As far as that speach goes, he could have just as easily said "we" have become, meaning his campaigners etc, instead with his usual manner that I find quite disconcerting, it was "I" just as usual, he is a pol after all.

    Parent

    That is bs -- there is no transcript (4.00 / 4) (#151)
    by angie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:47:58 PM EST
    the alleged "in context" quote came from Obama's camp after the original line was leaked. While I can't be 100% sure that he didn't say it the way he said he did, given his track record, I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt.
    Nonetheless, what you seem to miss here is even if Obama said it they way he says he did, saying "I" in that sentence is the arrogant part.

    Parent
    i advise you to take up your criticisms with (none / 0) (#70)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:58:14 PM EST
    jeralyn. she sets the rules. it is her blog.

    Parent
    Yup (none / 0) (#8)
    by NJDem on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:14:20 PM EST
    NQ link to the Wash Post.  Link

    I really have no words...

    Parent

    Actually it's a bogus quote.. (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by rjarnold on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:12:02 PM EST
    The quotes in the article (which are conflicting) are from recollections of two guests, but Weisman put them in quotation marks anyway attributing them to Obama.

    See today's Daily Howler

    Parent

    Here's a quote (5.00 / 0) (#110)
    by rjarnold on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:25:49 PM EST
    An "inaccurate quotation?" In fact, it doesn't quite rise to that level! In this unfortunate post, the Washington Post's increasingly hapless Jonathan Weisman put a bunch of words inside quotations marks and attributed them to Obama--but he had no apparent reason for thinking they were the actual words Obama had said. You see, Obama had spoken in a closed meeting--and Weisman was recording recollections of what he had said, recollections which had come from two different unnamed observers. "No tape of the event exists," Weisman wrote. But so what? He put two sets of words inside quotation marks anyhoo, attributing the statements to Obama.

    Surely, Weisman must know, in some part of his brain, that you can't get a real "quotation" that way. In fact, there's no apparent reason to think that either "quotation" is actually accurate. But so what? This is the Washington Post! These dueling collections of words were close enough for presidential campaign work.

    Weisman had obtained two recollections of what Obama had said. His two sources seemed to differ in their recollections. You'd think that anyone whose head wasn't stuck up his keister would understand a basic fact--there were no real "quotations" here. Simply put: We don't know what Obama said in that meeting. What we really seem to have is more like a pair of dueling paraphrases. But let's repeat that one key fact: We don't really know what he said.



    Parent
    According to No Quarter... (none / 0) (#187)
    by Faust on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:17:03 PM EST
    well. If you can't say anything nice about someone...

    Parent
    I can't believe how angry I still am.... (5.00 / 7) (#2)
    by Jjc2008 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:10:44 PM EST
    For the first time in a long time, I put on MSNBC.  It's hotter than hell here in CO (10 degrees higher than normal....and close to a record high and I live at an elevation of over 6000 ft.) and I don't have AC.  Best to stay inside and keep the house closed to keep the intense sun out.  

    Anyway, when the political shows came on I realized my anger has not dissipated one iota.  I can't even look at Maddow without an angry sense of betrayal.  Shuster makes me want to puke...along with Gregory and Barnicle (guess I should be happy Pig Matthews is on vacation.).

    And listening to them talk, it still stuns me how they got away with their mean, sexist crap for so long.  It shouldn't have mattered but I think it did. I think the democratic party used the media to get rid of the woman.  Seriously, I feel that way so please don't tell me not to. If I could I would take back any support I ever gave to Dean; I would take back the vote I gave to Kerry.  These two men have betrayed millions of democratic women who supported them and their party for years

    That's my vent and I am sticking to it.

    Yeah, my mood is always "that time of the (5.00 / 6) (#6)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:13:15 PM EST
    month" for me now, and I'm not even a woman.
    Those people are outrageous.

    Parent
    LOL (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:18:38 PM EST
    Try Black Cohosh (herbal remedy).

    Parent
    Black cohosh (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:32:57 PM EST
    saved my sanity, and possibly even my life!


    Parent
    Whenever I wonder (5.00 / 7) (#107)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:24:48 PM EST
    if I'm being petty and vindictive, I just think about the DNC RBC meeting.  That tends to put things in sharp relief for me.  

    Parent
    I am a lot happier since I stopped (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:18:00 PM EST
    watching most of the news.  We don't have cable, so I can't watch - oh, boo-hoo! - MSNBC or any of the other cable news shows.

    I'm reading more - for pleasure - which is something I realized I had been missing.

    Life's just too short.

    It's hazy, hot and humid here in Maryland - par for the course for this time of year - the air is the equivalent of dog breath.  Really, that's the closest thing I can compare it to.  The good news is that I live in the country, where less concrete and asphalt and more trees and general greenery means temps are 10 degrees cooler than in Baltimore, where I work.

    Parent

    I honestly feel for you (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by kempis on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:18:43 PM EST
    I simply cannot watch MSNBC any more. I was so infuriated by Matthews and Olbermann and Maddow during the primaries that I can't bear to even look at them. And I'm even in the "Gee, OK, I'll vote for Obama over McCain" camp.

    Can't watch CNN either, come to think of it....In fact, I've been enjoying reading more, watching more Turner Classic Movies and catching up on old episodes of Battlestar Gallactica that I missed. :)

    But I hear you. If I turned on MSNBC right now, I guarantee I'd be right where you are within moments.

    Parent

    Oh, it did matter. It still matters. (5.00 / 11) (#20)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:24:40 PM EST
    And it will matter for a long time.

    The actual sexism and misogny and the faux charges of racism.  All of that will matter to the end of time.

    Parent

    And Don't Forget... (5.00 / 9) (#69)
    by IzikLA on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:58:00 PM EST
    They betrayed the men that supported Hillary as well.  I think we have to get away from talking about all the upset women because it doesn't quite capture the scope of it and somehow the media always makes that sound belittling.  Point being, there are LOTS of us men as well, and many of us are as equally unhappy!!

    Other than that, well said - I can barely look at those people these days.

    Parent

    I know you are right (5.00 / 5) (#90)
    by Jjc2008 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:12:19 PM EST
    but as much as I try I cannot identify as much with your feelings as that of other women.  Women, not unlike myself, who have worked four decades for democratic causes; women who always took the back seat because it was always the men awarded the leadership positions in the local parties.

    I know men supported Hillary and I RESPECT THEM greatly.  Unfortunately, I have come to the point where unless it is pointed out that a man supported Hillary, I assume he's going to talk down to me if he is a democrat.  I KNOW it's wrong....it's just what I am feeling.  But deep down I greatly appreciate the many men who have and continue to support Hillary.

    Parent

    I think it's a trick of the noise vs actual number (5.00 / 5) (#153)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:49:06 PM EST
    The CDS/pro-misogyny crowd was so loud and relentless and, many of them have broadcast gigs that are considered legitimate by  many people, there are many days when it seems as if we're just surrounded by the worst and all the good guys have been disappeared.

    The worst for me was all that time I spent looking for even marginally intelligent political analysis before I hit TL.  I'd visit the big sites like NYT and WaPo and the most benign articles would have 100s of comments with the most appallingly sexist language.

    It was not only men, but the loudest, most vile and most prolific seemed to be mostly men.  It didn't matter how many times I told myself that all these little word ejaculations blobbed all over comment sections did not represent the mainstream or majority of the population, it was really difficult to hold onto that.  Very hard to shake that off.

    Parent

    What Pro-misogny crowd (3.50 / 2) (#239)
    by liberalone on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:46:17 PM EST
    I do not believe that there is a great pro-misogyny crowd in the Democratic party.  Unfortunately, many of the folks who refuse to acknowledge the reality of racism in this campaign and nation want throw around charges of sexism.  You cannot have it both ways.

    Issues of race and gender are far larger than the political goals of either Clinton or Obama.  Those of you who choose to trash Obama are more than welcomed to do so. No one will accuse you of racism, unless you make a racist statement.  Just like folks should feel free to critique Clinton without the label of sexism or misogyny.

    Currently there is only one viable party for progressives in this nation.  While it is not perfect, it has a far greater track record of sustained improvement for minorities and women.  If you want to create a new party, have at it.  I will not accept that the Democratic party is misogynistic.  

    Parent

    Good for you.... (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by mogal on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:22:13 PM EST
    I'm watching TCM and Lee Marvin just said when offered a job in a western SHOW, "I'm not going to spit on my whole life." Doesn't this describe how you feel andalot of us feel?

    Parent
    I don't think it had anything to do with gender. (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by WillBFair on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:42:36 PM EST
    I think the media got rid of the most accomplished and knowledgeable dems of our time. They want weak and pliable leaders, and eight years of Clinton successes were more than enough. They started the smear campaign before Bill and Hill were even in the White House. This was just an extension of it.

    Parent
    I think it was split between motivation and tools (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:54:18 PM EST
    Many used sexist riffs and whathaveyou as tools to, as you said, get rid of one of the most accomplished Dems.  But others have genuinely sexist motivations.

    Of course, just using sexism as a tool is a sexism problem in itself, but the fact that it was used as  tool in some cases doesn't mean it wasn't intentional misogyny in others.

    Parent

    I finally saw Mama Mia this afternoon... (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:14:49 PM EST
    ...Meryl Streep singing The Winner Takes it All was awesome.

    I saw it Monday (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by Jjc2008 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:13:04 PM EST
    and YES...Meryl was great.

    And I LOVED the scene when all the woman left their chores and danced. I just wanted to be with them.

    Parent

    I understand it is a remake of (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:38:38 PM EST
    Buena Sera Mrs. Campbell. You can catch it on TMC once in a while. Cast at that time in 1968.
    # Gina Lollobrigida
    # Phil Silvers
    # Peter Lawford
    # Telly Savalas
    # Shelley Winters
    # Lee Grant


    Parent
    I loved that movie! (none / 0) (#178)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:11:14 PM EST
    Every time I open a can of soup, I think about "Mrs. Campbell".

    Parent
    Yes that was a great scene too. (none / 0) (#105)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:23:26 PM EST
    The family is going to make a double (5.00 / 0) (#109)
    by Rhouse on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:25:47 PM EST
    feature of the new Mummy movie and the new Batman flick tomorrow.  None of  the movies to come out later this summer hold any interest for us, so we're getting the air conditioner replaced and renting stuff.  

    Parent
    All done (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:16:25 PM EST
    with the bar exam!  Hope I passed.  You never really know, but so far I'm 3 for 3 taking these silly things.

    Today was the essay portion, and there was a question about a girl named Christine who was being prosecuted for her involvement with an escort service, and you had to figure out if certain testimony was admissible regarding a certain Governor Spitfire who allegedly spent tens of thousands of dollars for sex with the defendant.  I swear to God they asked this as an actual bar exam question.  You gotta love New Jersey sometimes.

    On the multiple-choice section, the question I spent the most time on had to do with a subject near and dear to TL hearts, criminal procedure.  It went something like this:

    A police officer pulls over a car after running a computerized check on the license plate and finding an outstanding arrest warrant on the owner.  After the driver confirms that he does, in fact, own the vehicle, the officer places him under arrest.  He then proceeds to search the car and finds a quantity of marijuana in the glove compartment and cocaine in the trunk.  Unbeknownst to the officer, however, the arrest warrant had actually been vacated by a judge and only remained in the computer system because of a clerk's error.

    After the defendant is charged with drug crimes, his attorney moves to exclude the drugs seized from the vehicle.  The only argument offered by the prosecutor is that the search was incident to the arrest.

    Based on the prosecutor's arguments, should the marijuana and/or cocaine be excluded from evidence?

    Well?

    Boy am I glad I'm just (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:23:36 PM EST
    a musician and not a law student. That arrest scenario doesn't seem very cut-and-dried to me.

    Aren't you going to tell us how you answered?

    Parent

    Maybe! (none / 0) (#40)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:39:45 PM EST
    I want to give some other people a shot at it first.

    Maybe Jeralyn will weigh in and tell me the right answer, because I don't actually know. :)

    Parent

    It's been a decade since the bar for me (none / 0) (#162)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:57:22 PM EST
    and I don't work in law anymore.

    The only thing I can spot for sure is a good faith exception for the officer on warrant, due to the clerk's error.  But that's easy.

    Parent

    Gov. Spitfire! What a hoot. (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:31:28 PM EST
    Well, i'm not a lawyer, but that sounds (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:32:09 PM EST
    easy, on the face of it. The evidence should be excluded. Is that what you said?

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#42)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:41:53 PM EST
    There is an interesting body of law relating to what happens when the cops make a good-faith mistake.  For example, say they go to an address to execute a search warrant, and they don't realize that it's a multiple-family dwelling and the upstairs is someone else's residence.  So they go in the upstairs and find evidence of a crime, without knowing that they weren't supposed to be searching that half of the house.  I believe there's a case that says that evidence is actually okay because it was a good-faith mistake.

    Whether that case applies to this bar exam question, well, I honestly don't know.  I'm not even positive I'm describing the case right.

    Parent

    Ha! I would have said (none / 0) (#50)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:50:11 PM EST
    the opposite.  The officer couldn't know the order was vacated.  

    Parent
    I dont' see why it should matter. (none / 0) (#53)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:51:23 PM EST
    The officer had no right to search the vehicle. The face he thought he had one should make no difference.

    Parent
    What you say makes sense, but it isn't so (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by angie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:23:01 PM EST
    A "good faith" exception exists for police officers; ie. he relied in good faith. I don't practice criminal law, so I'm not up on all the nuances to give an "A" answer on this question, but I know the bar examiner will be looking for a discussion of the good faith exception.
    As for Steve M -- just remember -- you don't have to answer perfectly, you just have to answer better then 60% of the other poor saps. ;-)

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:24:36 PM EST
    The concept is that the exclusionary rule is a pretty harsh sanction, allowing criminals to go free because the constable blundered.  Just because you have a prohibition against unreasonable searches and seizures doesn't mean you also need to have an exclusionary rule - in fact, to my surprise, most countries don't!

    So the reason the exclusionary rule is so harsh is to deter bad conduct by the police.  When they've acted in good faith, and there's obviously no way the police officer in this question could have avoided the mistake, it's reasonable to relax the exclusionary rule a bit.

    Or so the logic goes, anyway.  One thing about being a lawyer is, you basically have to learn what the law is, whether you think it's fair or not :)

    Parent

    Steve M (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:53:00 PM EST
    A) Congrats on finishing another bar exam!  (But weren't you posting throughout the days here?  How did you do that?)

    B) Let me try to answer the question.  The criminal lawyers in the group can correct me.

    I think the search is valid because the police officer acted in good faith that a valid warrant existed. Since the police had broad authority to search a vehicle, depending on what they are looking for, and since there is an exception for automobiles (if police believe there may be "fruits, instrumentalities, or evidence of a crime", they may search the whole vehicle and any container that might reasonably contain those items.

    I am probably wrong on this, so more expert opinions are welcome.

    Parent

    Take a look at (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:59:54 PM EST
    Arizona v Evans and the Herring case -- here's one analysis

    Parent
    Woo Hoo (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:03:42 PM EST
    Looks like I guessed right!

    (Ok, time to fess up - I pulled out my Bar/Bri Mini Review book)

    Looks like they examiners used that exact fact pattern for the question.

    Parent

    But here's the catch (none / 0) (#98)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:18:43 PM EST
    Notice how the fact pattern says the prosecutor makes only the "search incident to arrest" argument, and the question specifically says "based on the prosecutor's arguments..."

    I think what they're saying is that you're right about the automobile exception, but it shouldn't be applied in this case because the prosecution didn't argue it.

    Instead, you're left with only a search incident to the arrest.  And I'm pretty sure the law on this - it's called the "lunge" doctrine - says that when the police arrest a driver, they can search every part of the car that's within the driver's reach, but they can't go in areas like the trunk.

    So my answer was that the marijuana gets in, but not the cocaine.  I dunno if that's right, but it was a fun thought process on the way there!

    Parent

    Ah dam*! (none / 0) (#136)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:42:05 PM EST
    That whole part about reading the whole question to see what they are really asking.

    I hate that part.

    Parent

    I forgot to add (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:04:13 PM EST
    Congrats on being done with the bar exam and think positively -- I'm sure you passed so allow me to extend my congrats now -- and please let us all know when you get the results. What state are you in?

    Parent
    I practice in NY (none / 0) (#101)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:21:12 PM EST
    but I thought I'd add the NJ bar to my resume since I'm now a NJ resident, and it's helpful because my firm sometimes gets work in NJ.  NJ has very difficult pro hac requirements because they don't want the zillions of NYC lawyers taking all their business.

    Most people actually take the NJ and NY bars at the same time, because the state-specific portion of the NJ exam is nothing but essay questions on the multistate topics, so there's not really any extra studying.  Or so I thought - they actually had a civil procedure essay today, and I hadn't studied the first thing about civil procedure.  Luckily for me, it was a question about class action certification, and I spent 3 years as a class action lawyer. ;)

    Parent

    BTW (none / 0) (#141)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:43:39 PM EST
    Without sounding stalker-ish - I found your page on your firm's website.  Amazingly you look just about what I imagined!

    Parent
    Depends... (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by santarita on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:13:22 PM EST
    30 years ago when I took the bar and we still had the 4th Amendment, the answer might have been different.  I think that there are cases that talk about the glove compartment being considered in plain view (especially if the car driver had to open the the glove compartment to get the vehicle registration to show the officer.  The trunk is off limits unless the officer spotted the marijuana first.      

    I haven't had to deal with those questions since I don't do criminal law.  But I watch "Law and Order".  So I must be an expert.

    Hope you passed!

    Parent

    Yes and no. (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by TChris on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:30:34 PM EST
    No suppression of the contents of the glove compartment, yes as to the cocaine in the trunk, which cannot be searched incident to arrest.  The failure to remove the warrant from the computer happens quite frequently and as long as the cop relied on the information in good faith, he had probable cause to make the arrest, so that's really a red herring.

    Parent
    Awright! (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:46:00 PM EST
    I got at least one right. :)

    Parent
    TChris I actually wanted to ask you (none / 0) (#137)
    by Rhouse on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:42:14 PM EST
    your feelings on this given some of your recent postings. http://tinyurl.com/6l8ysq
    It has to with a police SWAT team going wild.

    Parent
    Wasn't there a SC case on this (none / 0) (#39)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:39:11 PM EST
    fairly recently where the Court decided the evidence didn't have to be thrown out if it was discovered in good faith, even if in technical error?

    OTOH, betraying my layman's status totally, are cops allowed to search the car of anyone they arrest for any reason and charge them for whatever they may find?  If the guy wasn't arrested on, say, suspicion of drunk driving, what evidence does the cop have the right to go looking for?

    Parent

    Complicated answer (none / 0) (#122)
    by angie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:32:52 PM EST
    again, I don't do this kind of law, BUT if you are arrested in your car (as you propose, pulled over for dui, fail the sobriety test, put under arrest) then the police can search your car. For all practical purposes, in that case, even if the police didn't search your car then & there or if the police happened to arrest you in your car on other charges (i.e., not related to driving), your car would be impounded and the contents inventoried and anything found in it would be admissible. Generally, most automobile searches are upheld without a warrant. But, if you are not arrested in your car (i.e., just pulled over/being questioned) and you do not consent to a search of the vehicle, the police will have to establish at a minimum that they had probable cause to search.

    Parent
    Thanks for the explainer (none / 0) (#214)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:31:25 PM EST
    I'm not too crazy about warrantless searches of any kind, particularly if they're just fishing expeditions.  If I'm arrested at my house for murder, don't they have to get a warrant to search my house? (Not that they'd have any problems getting it under that circumstance, but still...)  I don't get why cars seem to be exempt from the normal rules.

    Parent
    Basically because cars are mobile (none / 0) (#227)
    by angie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:36:26 PM EST
    in that, they are easier to transport from place to place than a house. You might not agree with or like the rationale, but there it is.

    Parent
    NO. But I am not a lawyer. I think (none / 0) (#73)
    by hairspray on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:58:56 PM EST
    that finding marijuana under the circumstances is really besides the issue.  Common sense says no, but what do I know?

    Parent
    Anyone watching So You Think You (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:22:15 PM EST
    Can Dance this season?  There's so little on TV that I kind of got hooked on it.  I know next to nothing about the technical aspects of the various dance steps, but it really has just been great fun watching these very talented young people week after week.

    They have to cut two tonight to get down to the Final Four, and honestly, I don't think any of them deserve to go home.

    embarrassingly enough (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:03:30 PM EST
    yes, I do watch.  Thanks for the reminder.  I will try to catch who gets booted before I watch Burn Notice.

    My guess for who might go (I have to go look up the names)... ok: Twitch and Chelsea.
    Not easy, they are all very talented.  Now that I look at the pictures....I have to say I was surprised to see Will eliminated.

    Parent

    I'll stay with Courtney and Mark getting (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Rhouse on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:17:51 PM EST
    voted off, and that Katee wins it all.  

    Parent
    Waldenpond....loooove Burn Notice (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:39:51 PM EST
    Mmmm Hmmmm (5.00 / 0) (#166)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:01:34 PM EST
    All I can say is  - Michael Weston - very hot.

    Parent
    Agree (5.00 / 0) (#176)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:08:13 PM EST
    love his smile.

    Parent
    Okay I got One of the TWO to be voted (none / 0) (#165)
    by Rhouse on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:01:03 PM EST
    off the island.  I'm still sticking with Katee to win it all, but d+mn Joshua is good.

    Parent
    shhhhhh! (none / 0) (#184)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:13:27 PM EST
    hey, hey, hey.....West Coast here.... I still have 2 hours to go. shhhhhh.   :)

    Parent
    SYTYCD...one of my favorites. I thought (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:39:08 PM EST
    Twitch or Mark would have gone before Will, but you hafta vote and if your fans don't, you are toast.  They have had some phenomenal dancers this year....Joshua and Katee are my top picks and it is going to be hard when it gets down to just them....the others have NOTHING to be ashamed about.  I think Twitch might go home tonight and maybe Chelsea...oh hell, don't want any of them to go...how about a six-way tie?

    Parent
    Obama using race card? (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by fctchekr on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:23:52 PM EST
    Just posted this on morning open which is closed now.

    What's everyone's take?

    It's an interesting preemptive race baiting strategy: on three separate occasions BO put it out that Republicans will try to paint him as... i.e. someone they've never seen before on dollar  bills. (see below)
    If Obama was reacting to the ad, than he's off mark. The ad attacked him for his celebrity, it didn't attack him because of his race. Here's the text and link:

    "At three stops in the battleground state of Missouri, Obama told audiences that his opponent is trying to make voters "scared" of him because he doesn't look like past presidents -- an apparent reference to being black -- and has a "funny name."

    "Nobody really thinks that Bush or McCain have a real answer for the challenges we face," Obama said Wednesday in Springfield, Missouri. "So what they're going to try to do is make you scared of me. You know, he's not patriotic enough. He's got a funny name. You know, he doesn't look like all those other presidents on those dollar bills, you know. He's risky."

    This is not the first time Obama has delivered this line. He made similar comments dating back to the Democratic presidential primary. But a McCain adviser said Davis reacted strongly because the McCain campaign said Obama was directly responding to a new McCain campaign ad.

    The political ad, which the McCain campaign released Wednesday, features starlets Britney Spears and Paris Hilton. The ad calls Obama the "biggest celebrity in the world" and asks, "But is he ready to lead?"

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/31/campaign.wrap/index.html

    I think that's unquestionably what (5.00 / 4) (#41)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:41:38 PM EST
    Obama was doing.  (Stupid idea, though, in the general election, IMHO) The McCain people were smart to pounce on it hard right away.  I'm sure they were waiting for it, having seen it over and over again in the primaries.

    Parent
    Supposedly (5.00 / 8) (#44)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:43:22 PM EST
    Robert Gibbs said that "doesn't look like the other presidents" line wasn't a reference to race.

    Now, I mean, who the heck are they kidding here.

    Parent

    yea (4.00 / 1) (#87)
    by americanincanada on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:11:08 PM EST
    Gibbs said it was a reference to 'experience'. I am not sure how that relates to Washington and Lincoln though. We all know what he was talking about, he did it three times today at three different speeches.

    Parent
    I read that he said it related (none / 0) (#171)
    by angie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:04:47 PM EST
    to the fact that Obama isn't a "Washington insider" like all those presidents are! Neat trick for George, as the capitol wasn't even in Washington when he was President.

    OT -- is it just me or does anyone else have a pet peeve about referring the men on the money as presidents? Hamilton & Franklin weren't presidents -- and that is 1/3 of the 6 most popular bills (1s, 5s, 10s, 20s, 50s & 100s).

    Parent

    Here we go again... (5.00 / 9) (#21)
    by OrangeFur on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:25:19 PM EST
    McCain released that (in my mind) ineffective ad comparing Obama to Paris Hilton and Britney Spears and saying they were all empty celebrities. Now the NYT editorial board is saying that the ad is racist, because it turns out that those two are white women, and a white woman was used in a racially tinged way in a commercial that ran against Harold Ford two years ago.

    Coming from the same people who ran an Op-Ed saying that Hillary's 3 am ad was a remake of Birth of a Nation, and pillaged her for her LBJ comments, this maybe shouldn't be a surprise. But the thought of another three months of incessant claims of racism makes me retch.

    Recently, Obama also claimed that McCain's strategy would be to point out that Obama doesn't look like the other presidents on the currency. McCain responded by saying that Obama is playing the race card from the "bottom of the deck." The NYT editorial board isn't so fond of that either, apparently because 12 years ago or so one of OJ's lawyers said used the same phrase.

    Honestly, could political coverage be any worse?

    Lou Dobbs hauled out all the bills (5.00 / 6) (#25)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:30:07 PM EST
    we've got tonight -- $1, $5, $10 bills, etc.  Showed all the ones with presidents on them and even the secretary of the treasury and the inventor of the stove aka Ben Franklin.  Showed 'em all, and then showed 'em next to a bill with Obama on it.

    That made the Obama line look really quite silly.

    Dobbs drives me nuts sometimes, but he can really get to the core of an issue in interesting ways.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:43:50 PM EST
    Would have been funny if someone had slipped a peso in there :)

    Parent
    If anyone did look like them, (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:59:26 PM EST
    they would be dead. They are a sickly shade of gray. Also, their clothing style is so over.

    Parent
    Yes, they all looked really dead. (2.00 / 0) (#194)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:21:51 PM EST
    Seriously dead.  Not to mention in need of new hairstyles.  And sideburns also are just so passe.

    I get giggles thinking about Obama with Ben Franklin's bald pate and shoulder-length locks or with Jackson's sideburns.  Thank heavens that Dobbs refrained from taking it that far to show just how silly is Obama's comment.

    Silly and dangerous.  Quite a combination for a candidate.  I don't think it's going to go over well.  As a commenter elsewhere noted, race-baiting won't work with Repubs because they're not counting on the African American vote.

    Parent

    Right (5.00 / 0) (#204)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:27:20 PM EST
    Race-baiting won't work for the Republicans because they aren't counting on the Africa-American vote?  Did you really just say that?

    I do like the deconstruction of Obama's comment to the point of absurdity.  I am disappointed in you guys that you haven't accused Obama of being ageist with this comment.

    Parent

    His surrogates have been (none / 0) (#233)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:39:43 PM EST
    dog-whistling the age issue to beat the band-- McCain is "grouchy," "tired," "grumpy," etc., all words deliberately intended to characterize him as someone who's too old.


    Parent
    But, to address your point re the NYT (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:31:51 PM EST
    the NYT ought to be ashamed of itself.  Yeh, that'll happen.

    So if McCain talks about the budget deficit, and some racist sometime, somewhere talked about the budget deficit, then McCain is a racist.

    Uh huh.  Please, NYT, provide transcripts for your editorial board to show their grades in logic class.

    Parent

    The O camp didn't get the racist (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:58:34 PM EST
    drum beating quick enough on this. Wonder if it will work since O just played his own race card (again!). They were much quicker with some of this stuff against Hil.

    Parent
    If the NYT editorial board didn't die (5.00 / 0) (#175)
    by angie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:07:34 PM EST
    of shame after running the article accusing Hillary's 3 a.m. ad as being based on "Birth of a Nation" (even though one of the children in the ad was, in fact, black), then they aren't going to be shamed by this.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#78)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:00:31 PM EST
    Nice deductive reasoning, there (or is it inductive reasoning?)  You hit the nail on the head, Cream - congratulations!  You can get a job with the Obama campaign!

    Parent
    Ugh, you just insulted me (5.00 / 0) (#108)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:25:37 PM EST
    by suggesting that this could get me a job with that campaign.  That campaign does not want people who can see through the crap they're pulling.

    Parent
    My most humble apologies (none / 0) (#132)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:40:37 PM EST
    Meant tongue-in-cheek, of course. :)

    Parent
    Oh, I know. (none / 0) (#156)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:51:46 PM EST
    I owe you a smiley-face, too. :-)

    Parent
    Harold Ford (4.00 / 1) (#188)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:18:04 PM EST
    when asked if he thought the Spears/Hilton ad by the McCain campaign was racist. He said NO without equivocation. On MSNBC of all places.

    Parent
    He said the ad used against him (none / 0) (#198)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:23:25 PM EST
    Wasn't racist either.

    Parent
    anyone who looks at that ad (1.00 / 0) (#149)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:47:22 PM EST
    and sees racism instead of the argument that is really bing made that Obama is an empty suit just like Paris Hilton must go through life looking for racism in everything.  If you find racism in that ad the problem is with YOU,not the ad.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 0) (#182)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:13:09 PM EST
    Because comparing a United States Senator to Paris Hilton certainly seems reasonable to me.

    I have no idea if their intention was race baiting but I find it surprising that their campaign didn't at least acknowledge the possibility that the charge would be made.  

    It's not like that charge wasn't just recently levied against a Republican in the last election cycle.

    Parent

    LOL (5.00 / 0) (#191)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:19:12 PM EST
    and don't forget (I Love Bush) Britany. The first thing that comes to mind when you think of Senator Obama is Britany Spears, anyway, right.....  no big deal...

    Parent
    I was imagining (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:24:42 PM EST
    How McCain would have responded if the Obama campaign were to release an ad that was so disrespectful of McCain that this ad was of Obama.

    I think McCain's head might actually explode.  The guy specializes in being offended and outraged.  

    Parent

    the ad used against Ford (none / 0) (#209)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:28:22 PM EST
    was completely different.  That had a woman actually INVITING him to call her and presumably set up a date.

    Paris Hilton is most famous for being famous.  There is no there, there with Paris.  That is exactly the comparison they were making.

    I understand that you feel Obama deserves musc respect as a sitting US Senator.  But, there are many people out there, that McCain is trying to reach who feel Obama is an inexperienced empty suit.  And, that has nothing to do with race.

    Parent

    Right (5.00 / 0) (#218)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:32:15 PM EST
    So you think it is fine to be disrespectful of Obama?  I'm make sure to remind you of that the next time you defend McCain and say we need to be respectful of him.

    If you think that Obama is in any way comparable to Paris Hilton in any way, you're a clinical idiot.  

    Parent

    i don't care whether you are respectful (5.00 / 1) (#228)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:37:22 PM EST
    of McCain or not.  Although, I don't think the commercial is disrespectful.  I just think it is pointing out that Obama is being treated like a rock star when he doesn't have the talent or experience to deserve  that treatment

    And,i think the comparison to Paris is legitimate because I don't believe Obama is qualified to be president.

    Parent

    Actually? (none / 0) (#226)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:36:21 PM EST
    Wow. Sounds intense. So Britany and Paris were only "virtually" smitten by him, while in the other video it was 'actual'? Is that your point?

    LOL

    Parent

    I just have a hard time believing (none / 0) (#186)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:15:26 PM EST
    it will work.  Maybe I'm some sort of bizarre optimist (my friends would tell you differently), but won't people read about or watch the Paris bit of the ad and ask, 'NYT, are you smoking crack there in the editorial room?'

    I mean, all the folks not already in the tank for Obama.

    I went and watched the Paris ad after I saw a bit of hullabaloo about it and thought I must have gotten the wrong ad.

    I really, really have to hope this backfires, and in a big way, because it's ruining any reasoned or logical discourse in the whole country.  If McCain does come out with an actually racist ad, I know I'll be sorely tempted to just shrug and say, 'meh'.

    Parent

    So let me get this straigh (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:29:44 PM EST
    McCain's ad comparing Barack Obama to Paris Hilton and Brittany Spears isn't ruining reasoned and logical discourse in the country.  No sir.  It is the RESPONSE to his vapid and petty ad that is ruining reasoned and logical discourse.

    Parent
    See my post above, Obama loves this (none / 0) (#130)
    by catfish on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:39:52 PM EST
    they've been hoping for this.

    Parent
    Nothing racist about the ad...... (none / 0) (#170)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:04:18 PM EST
    You can make anything sound bad, but this ad. I saw it and immediately got from it the fact that Paris and Brittany and Obama were all mega stars to the world. I mean, did they have to spend hours on the trip to the jail for Paris? And the release? Was this really news? Did Paris deserve all the publicity by the media? Aren't there a million Paris's out in the world without the name and money? She is nothing special and she adds nothing to any of our lives. She doesn't even have talent but 'she is a celebrity'. And that is the comparison of Obama and Paris and Britany. They are not Frank Sinatra or the Beatles. They are not worth the faint. And that was the message of the commercial. White or Black, you can be a 'star'. Maybe they needed to put in P Daddy.

    In all my life, words that were just slang to me, I now find had a racist background. I had no idea. They were just expressions. And maybe that is my problem. I did not see white, white, and black in the commercial.I saw 3 people. And I never remember a candidate get so much press going to Europe before he is even nominated. Awwwwwwww, the celebrity status. Amazing.

    Parent

    That makes me angry every time... (5.00 / 12) (#22)
    by OrangeFur on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:26:27 PM EST
    He's basically saying that people won't vote for him because they're racists. And he says it over and over and over again.

    If McCain in fact talking a lot about (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:57:24 PM EST
    Obama? Based on the primaries, where Obama made exactly the same charge against Hillary---and was completely wrong---I suspect Obama made the charge without any attempt to verify it.
    I mean, they MUST be talking about him.. right?

    Parent
    I don't find it an undercurrent at all. (5.00 / 11) (#23)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:26:59 PM EST
    It looks quite blatant to me.

    And I don't like it one little bit.

    I don't like it a lot.  It is shutting down discourse on race in academe, for one place -- and a crucial place for the future of this country.  I see it already, and it will be very clear come the school year.

    Right, he's playing chicken, daring (5.00 / 9) (#26)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:30:39 PM EST
    people to call him on the tactic, confident they will not do so because of the cries of "racism" which will greet any criticism of the tactic.

    Parent
    Interesting (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:05:51 PM EST
    on MSNBC last night, Harold Ford was asked if he thought the McCain ad depicting Brittany Spears and Paris Hilton was racist; he said NO.  Tonight
    on one of the MSNBC political talk shows, Pat Buchanan made the point that Obama supporters are improperly trying to paint every criticism of Obama as racist.  This stuff worked on Dems with white guilt and Dems who could be riled up to blame Hillary and blame Bill, but it will not work in the general election - in my opinion.  

    I thought Obama was far more effective today when he took McCain to task for not being able to come up with anything more significant to put in his ad than pictures of Hilton & Spears, and asking why, with all the challenges faced by the nation today, McCain could not focus on the important issues.  

    But I don't think that having the campaign take one tack and Obama another will work in the general election.  The indepedents are trying to decide on Obama. I don't think they'll spend much time distinguishing between the candidate and his surrogates, nor will they be persuaded by guilt or attempts to shut down criticism.  

    Parent

    Very well said` (5.00 / 0) (#223)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:34:36 PM EST
    As for Ford, my sense is that he has made it a personal rule never to find anything racist.  He's always said that that truly racist ad run against him in his election wasn't.  So I wouldn't take what he says as representative on that kind of thing.

    Parent
    I think your point that (5.00 / 4) (#225)
    by frankly0 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:35:16 PM EST
    the bogus claims of racism that worked so well for Obama in the Democratic primaries will simply backfire on him in the general.

    Just about every person who hears such trumped up accusations and believes them is already well to the left even within the Democratic Party -- they are virtually non-existent in other swaths of the political spectrum.  

    And it's actually worse than that still if the Obama campaign contrives further accusations of "racism" where there is none. There is the "boy crying wolf" effect as well. The Obama campaign really had a certain allotment of credibility they could use in claiming racism, and it has now been entirely exhausted.

    Let the Obama campaign try it some more. Let's see where they get if they start claiming simply being called "arrogant" must have racist overtones. Let's see which remaining voters could possibly be persuaded by that argument after all their other concocted claims of racism in the past.

    Parent

    It's shutting (5.00 / 8) (#33)
    by Emma on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:34:38 PM EST
    down discourse on race everywhere.  I have been raked over the coals repeatedly simply for disagreeing that some particular incident was racist.  It is becoming more and more impossible to talk about race anywhere, any time.

    Parent
    i don't want to hear about it for 4 years. (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by hellothere on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:55:31 PM EST
    i don't want to hear about obama period. i want him to tell america what he plans to do if he is elected president.

    Parent
    The only 2 things I know for sure (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by angie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:43:42 PM EST
    that he will do (1) replace the White House bowling alley with a basketball court, and (2) take the tv out of the Lincoln bedroom ('cause ever the mean mommy, people staying there should be reading the Gettysburg Address, not watching tv -- of course, he doesn't say what those people should do after spending the 2 minutes it takes to read the Gettysburg address).

    Parent
    From reading The Brethren (5.00 / 0) (#152)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:49:03 PM EST
    I know that they already have a basketball court down the street at the Supreme Court.

    Apparently they really do call it "the highest court in the land," too.  Cheesy :)

    Parent

    Yup (5.00 / 0) (#169)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:03:27 PM EST
    When I moved to DC, I took the Supreme Court tour.  They confirm the fact about the basketball court being above the courtroom and they really do call it "the highest court in the land".

    Apparently Clarence Thomas used to play up there with the law clerks until he hurt his knee.  Wonder if he said "ditto" when one of his teammates scored? </snark>

    Parent

    Bangladeshi. (5.00 / 7) (#34)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:35:58 PM EST
    I read that Cindy brought her to the US without telling her husband first. Which I find kinda cool on her part.

    Well (5.00 / 15) (#37)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:38:35 PM EST
    A charitable reaction is that he's overdoing it just a wee bit on the prophylactic thing.

    What I really don't get is how his supporters can continue to claim every last thing the GOP does contains a secret racist undercurrent because, if you so much as show a picture of Obama, you're "reminding people he's black."  I never understood how it's supposed to matter if you remind people he's black when every last person on the planet knows it, but you certainly can't claim that the merest reference is racist when Obama himself talks about it again and again and again.

    But then again, this takes us all back to the primary, when we were constantly told that Obama was doing everything in his power to keep race completely out of the campaign.  I think the appropriate reaction to that goes without saying.

    I have had a few surprises (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:55:25 PM EST
    that come from getting my news from the radio and internet.  I think it wasn't until Ken Blackwell ran for the governor of Ohio that I actually saw a picture of him.  Before then I didn't know he was a black man.

    Now Obama is an entirely different story.  Anyone who doesn't know that the man with a "funny" name is black probably doesn't live in the United States.  

    Parent

    Hm (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:26:07 PM EST
    You didn't watch Election Night 2004?  He was on all the news channels.

    I remember watching him and thinking, "wow, this guy really seems to be on the ball, thank God it's him in charge and not that nutball Katherine Harris."  It was only later that I found out what an extreme right-winger he was.

    Parent

    Blackwell in 2004 (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:09:57 PM EST
    was not only Secretary in Ohio with authority over elections, but he was also Chair of Bush Reelection Campaign in Ohio.

    Parent
    2004 (none / 0) (#144)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:45:25 PM EST
    At that point I had a one year old and a three year old.  We watched Sesame Street.  I listened to the news from NPR.  

    I had two kids who didn't sleep on the same schedule.  I once spent three hours using every strategy I could to get one kid to take a nap.  The only one that worked was sheer exhaustion.  

    In addition, at that time I was way too angry at GWB in particular and the media in general to spend more time with news coverage than I needed to.

    Parent

    Ha! (none / 0) (#168)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:03:16 PM EST
    or doesn't live on this planet.

    Parent
    How about (5.00 / 6) (#63)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:56:10 PM EST
    The fact that Gov. Sebelius, other Obama campaign officials, and even posters here said we are not allowed to question his lack of experience, nor call his attitude "arrogant" or "cocky" because those are  racist code words.  So, apparently, we are only allowed to be against "hope" and "change" (and who can be against that?) since we are not allowed to discuss substantive issues...

    Parent
    The Elimination of Television (5.00 / 4) (#64)
    by WakeLtd on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:56:57 PM EST
    I really am not a "culture snob". For reasons having more to do with my mental health than anything else, I cancelled my cable service about 4 years ago. I own a TV. It sits on a table in the corner of my living-room. It has not been turned on in over 2 years. For a while I used it to watch DVDs and now I don't even do that. So for the past year I have been reading about the blatant sexism of the news media and dipping into the occassional "Youtube" clip of particularly egregious incidents, more like an ethnologist studying a foreign culture, than a news junkie. I depend on text for my "news".  And the Internet provides a lot of text. I end up reading many interpretations of "media events" without having seen the source material. There is a certain detached sense of objectivity. Plus,  I do read a lot more books now. Oddly, I did not stop  watching television because I disliked it. I stopped because I liked it too much: 5-8 hours of watching TV a day after a while just began to seem odd. Now, if I am at a friend's house and they have the TV on it barely attracts my attention. It could be a pet in the corner of a room grooming itself. In some sense,  I guess I have become disconnected. I wonder if McLuhan had any opinions about this sort of withdrawal from  the "massage"?

    Obama has yet to be accused (5.00 / 4) (#65)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:57:09 PM EST
    of being humble.  Insecure, yes.  Humble, no.

    Read the site rules. You have one (5.00 / 5) (#77)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:00:28 PM EST
    more comment to make today, on your "new" account. Use the opportunity wisely.

    I read that on another site. Jack Tapper of (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by hairspray on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:04:36 PM EST
    some Political site writes a harsh piece on this citing the incidents and calling them for what they are...race baiting.  I loathe what the Rethuugs have done to our country under Reagan/Bush I & II but I hope they rub the O campaign's nose in this one and that it makes major news outlets.  They got away with it on HRC and she couldn't do much about it, let the GOP have at it.  Expose this campaign for what it it.

    I could handle arrogance (5.00 / 8) (#85)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:09:58 PM EST
    if he had a firm grasp on nuts and bolts policy.

    If his steak was a good as his sizzle, he'd have a lot more supporters.  It's that simple.

    "better than McCain" (5.00 / 5) (#118)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:30:42 PM EST
    I'm beginning to be inspired to check out the third party candidates in my state.  Maybe some of them are "better than McCain" too!  

    If that's all it takes....

    Parent

    But McCain isn't said to be acting arrogant (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:32:40 PM EST
    so do you see the problem with your reply?  Steve posed his as a hypothesis, and you're not addressing that by only addressing the second part.

    And to so misconstrue a hypothesis is playing tricks.

    Parent

    Anyone see Flipping Out Tuesday night? (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:27:46 PM EST
    I missed it but someone said that Chris was wearing a Hillary pin. I'm still waiting for a re-airing.

    To paraphrase Tom Hanks (none / 0) (#146)
    by kredwyn on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:46:08 PM EST
    from You've Got Mail:

    He makes coffee nervous.

    Even the commercials drive me up a wall...I doubt I could actually watch the show.

    Parent

    He was wearing the pin! n/t (none / 0) (#181)
    by angie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:12:41 PM EST
    Thanks! (none / 0) (#220)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:33:46 PM EST
    No she didn't (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:30:25 PM EST
    she warned people not to allow their comments to get into race-baiting. Big difference.


    it's time she provide (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:06:49 PM EST
    Some sort of working definition of what Race Baiting is.

    If Bill Clinton points out that Jesse Jackson won South Carolina, is that a race baiting comment?

    What about when someone says "Bill was trying to make Obama the black candidate," can't that be race baiting too?

    Cause I think one statement is a truthful statement that can be verified.

    The second statement is not.  It can not be verified.

    I just don't know.

    I just don't know.

    Parent

    Two emails from Obama camp today about this (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by catfish on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:38:52 PM EST
    One in the morning with an embedded video of Obama's response. The subject line was "a nasty turn." In it they describe McCain's ad:
    catfish --

    As we face the fundraising deadline at midnight tonight, I want you to know what we are up against.

    Less than 24 hours ago, the McCain campaign launched the latest and lowest in a series of misleading attack ads.

    This Karl Rove-style ploy misleads people about Barack's energy plan and even mocks his ability to inspire voters and bring Americans back into the political process.

    Watchdogs in the media are calling McCain's accusations "bogus," "desperate," "wrong," "misleading," "ugly," "offensive," "reckless," and "a nasty turn into the gutter."

    Some of McCain's own supporters agree. One senior Republican strategist quoted by the Washington Post called the latest ad a "wild swing at Obama" that reflects his campaign's "increasing bitterness" and the lack of "any coherent strategy to elect McCain."

    A second email arrived this afternoon. Subject line: "The Low Road":

    Alison --

    A few hours ago John McCain, the same man who just months ago promised to run a "respectful campaign," said he is "proud" of his latest attack ad.

    That's the one attacking your enthusiasm, comparing me to Paris Hilton and Britney Spears, and making false claims about my energy plan.

    Now, we're facing some serious challenges in this country -- our economy is struggling, energy costs are skyrocketing, and families don't have health care.

    Given the seriousness of these issues, you'd think we'd be having a serious debate. But instead, John McCain is running an expensive, negative campaign against us. Each day brings a desperate new set of attacks.

    And they're not just attacking me. They're attacking you.

    (Emphasis mine. Love that last line, that's in a lot of their emails.) They did this to Hillary, and it worked. I think it's less potent now, too much time has passed. They send this to the press, too, and now I understand all the faux outrage over that barely negative "celeb" ad.

    Are these real? (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:07:24 PM EST
    They read like satire to me:

    and even mocks his ability to inspire voters and bring Americans back into the political process

    What's not to mock?

    But the real kicker is this:

    Given the seriousness of these issues, you'd think we'd be having a serious debate.

    LOL.  Please, someone alert me when the O campaign turns on the serious debate.  Haven't seen it yet, not holding my breath.

    Parent

    Oh yes. Very typical of what they sent (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by catfish on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:21:41 PM EST
    during the primary. It's like they've been licking their chops, hoping McCain would run a negative ad. It's all they've got - grievance campaigning. Vote for us because they picked on me!

    Parent
    "Grievance Campaigning" (5.00 / 5) (#222)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:34:32 PM EST
    what a perfectly apt phrase.  I shall use it and give you credit, catfish.

    Parent
    this is nothing NEW (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:42:29 PM EST
    Obama did this to McCain  a few weeks back in Florida right after the primary ended.  But, that time he was even more blatant.  At that event he came right out after the "funny name" stuff and claimed McCain's camp would then whisper "and he's black".

    But, it didn't cause much of a stir in the media that time.  Maybe this shows that the media is going to finally stop giving Obama a pass.

    Of course the die hard Obama fans still don't get it.  They claim Obama is just telling the truth of what McCainis doing.  Because thay are still trying to peddle the theory that the Paris Hilton ad is racist.  They are still claimimg that ad is supposed to make you think that Obama is tryinmg to take the pretty, young white girls away from the white men.  They're crazy.  A couple of years ago they couls have replaced Paris and Britney with Sanjaya and William Hung and the ad would have meant the same thing.  All FAME no TALENT. You couldn't use them now because their 15 minutes of fame is over.  But, Paris is the most famous no talent person the world has ever known.

    Not allowed (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:46:14 PM EST
    Jeralyn does not allow racist comments on this site.  Please indicate who has made such comments so they can be banned.

    McCain (and others) (5.00 / 4) (#167)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:02:28 PM EST
    have called Obama ARROGANT, not "uppity".  You know how Obama supporters always defend Obama by saying he never "literally" said such and such?  So, why do you now claim McCain used the term "uppity" when he never did?

    And, don't you think it is arrogant to create your own little "presidential" seal at the end of the primary?  How about all the recent comments he made in the mid east and europe where he "misspoke" and  said things like he looked forward to working with so and so in the future acting like he had already been elected?  That's pretty arrogant.  People who know Obama from his law school days have been quoted in the media as saying he has always been arrogant.

    If you aren't allowed to use the word arrogant for a black man because people will accuse you of saying "uppity", then what word do you use when Obama does act arrogant?

    Gergen Plugs Hillary for VP on CNN (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:11:30 PM EST


    Interesting (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:15:03 PM EST
    Gergen is savvier about politics than any of the rest of us.

    Aren't we all under the impression that the issue is settled at this point?

    Parent

    Yup (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:20:26 PM EST
    Gergen is a a gasbag of center-left conventional wisdom. I have no idea if the Obama people are thinking what he is.

    Parent
    A what? (none / 0) (#200)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:24:49 PM EST
    Are we talking about the same guy here?  Republican David Gergen? :)

    Parent
    I think he's essentially a RINO these days (none / 0) (#203)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:27:00 PM EST
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#210)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:29:09 PM EST
    He's very much a Bush I Republican.  But we still call those people Republicans, even if they're a dying breed.

    I'm not aware that he has any particular affection towards Hillary from his time in the Clinton White House, but I also think he knows her too well to buy into most of the conventional narratives.

    Parent

    Also, just looking at the Senate roll calls (none / 0) (#213)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:29:46 PM EST
    tonight. Guess who didn't vote? Hillary. She's otherwise been voting regularly.

    Take that for what it's worth. I have no idea what she was off doing.

    Parent

    maybe not (none / 0) (#231)
    by jedimom on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:38:35 PM EST
    I thought it was settled, but now I dont know, he is polling so low that I think he NEEDS Hill for the bump at this point and to reunify the party, IMHO.

    Parent
    I had no clue that they were GOP talking points (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:18:48 PM EST
    Apparently I do not read them, but I have the common sense and life experiences to know when someone is acting arrogant. This site is not telling me that he is acting that way a lot. I can see it for myself. I, personally, see more arrogance rather than more humbleness. What if I was looking at his Mother's white side? Would it still be viewed the same?

    We have to start using user names. (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:22:43 PM EST
    It saves the scrolling up to see who you are addressing. LOL.

    Maybe so (none / 0) (#207)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:28:13 PM EST
    I don't care anymore.

    You're not supposed to attack people, but I think that person is despicable.

    I just hope that person's comment is at least deleted along with mine.


    Parent

    On the other hand (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:31:48 PM EST
    I can't believe anyone is still talking about this.  What is the point?  Is the Obama campaign going to score points with any undecided voters by making the dubious claim that his opponent is playing the race card?  I think not. I think whatever voters in this country have a problem electing a non-white as President, are going to vote accordingly, and no race-baiting charges or whatever is going to change that. To me the analogy is the 27%, who, despite all that has happened since 2001, still approve of Bush -- no one and nothing is going to change their minds, so attempting to persuade this sector to vote Democratic is a waste of time. I think the more the Dems try to make race-baiting the issue, the more they will turn voters off.  In my opinion, the vast majority of voters want to know what Obama is going to do as president and what he will do for them; anyone who listens to Obama for 10 minutes know he has a high IQ and the capacity to do the job. The questions are: What will he do as president to address all the problems facing this nation, and how do his experience and record give voters assurance of what Obama will do in the future.  The rest, to me, is noise that may have worked in the primaries, but it won't work in the general.

    Got here late (5.00 / 1) (#240)
    by CST on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:47:53 PM EST
    My 2 cents on this thread:

    Arrogant is not racist.

    Obama is sometimes arrogant.

    I could give a cr@p if the president is arrogant if they do the job they are supposed to do.

    Everyone needs to chill out, take a step back, and stop attacking each other.

    Anyone watching (4.66 / 3) (#88)
    by Lahdee on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:11:10 PM EST
    "Do You Think You Can Be President?" It's been pretty entertaining this year. There's this old guy. He's got no clue, but he was young once and his teeth gleamed. Then there's this young guy, hip, very hip, with rainbows in his hair. He gleams also, but in a new shiny kinda way. He may have a clue, we don't know yet.
    Next week's challenge for the old guy is to get off a high horse. And for the shiny new guy a day with Bill Clinton's legacy. I can't wait.

    Back to the VP discussion.... (none / 0) (#10)
    by mogal on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:15:52 PM EST

    it is painful to say this but Sebelius would help Obama with some powerful people on the MISSOURI side of Kansas City. It just wouldn't help me.

    Het, I'm still angry... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by mogal on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:37:09 PM EST
    and I agree it will hurt him nationwide but IT will help on the MISSOURI swing state side and he is going to need all the help he can get.

    Parent
    That was suppose to be Hey..Sorry (none / 0) (#36)
    by mogal on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 07:38:12 PM EST
    V-P Discussion is strange to me... (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by santarita on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:29:09 PM EST
    I know everyone is focussing on who would help Obama win the election.  But should we be thinking also about what that person will be doing if Obama does win?  If the V-P position will be a sinecure then the attributes of the person selected would be all about what they can do to help win the election and nothing more.  If the job is to have any meat to it, wouldn't that dictate the kind of person Obama would choose?  

    The more I think about who would be a a good V-P candidate, the more I realize that we have strange ways of making decisions about the people who will lead this country.  

    Parent

    Obama should pick a VP based on (5.00 / 3) (#148)
    by hairspray on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:47:05 PM EST
    who could lead this country if anything happens to him.  He owes it to the country to pick a VP based on larger issues than "who will help me with the women I am putting under the bus."   Then when he picks that person he should tell his followers that he intends to use that person to help him do the best possible job he can to help this country get back on its feet.

    Parent
    exactly (5.00 / 3) (#180)
    by NJDem on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:11:48 PM EST
    when BC was asked why he chose Al Gore he said: "because I can die"

    Parent
    Perhaps there would be a Resurrection (5.00 / 7) (#202)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:26:16 PM EST
    after only three days of an Acting Prez, so the possibility of a long-term replacement does not factor into the Obama VP search.

    Parent
    You are absolutley right! (none / 0) (#140)
    by mogal on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:43:34 PM EST
    girl (none / 0) (#219)
    by jedimom on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:33:26 PM EST
    I agree with you! it is a kick in the teeth IMO

    Parent
    Don't you realize that it is an opinion? (none / 0) (#99)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:20:44 PM EST
    I know a couple of black guys who think Obama is arrogant. What difference does it make? Every single politician is probably quite arrogant. Again, I ask. What difference does it make? Still, if he strike me as arrogant, that's my opinion. I thought Kerry was arrogant but I voted for him. Far more irritating to me than Obama's arrogance is the insistence by some of his supporters that I find him to be perfection personified, when I just plain don't.

    Hello; (none / 0) (#102)
    by ChiTownDenny on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:22:13 PM EST
    Can I get your thoughts on if you think Obama had a hand in the leak of his Wailing Wall prayer?

    I simply don't care. (5.00 / 0) (#124)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:34:57 PM EST
    I don't know anything about the prayer.  Never seen it, never want to.  If it was meant to be private, then I respect the intended privacy.  If it was meant to be a blatant publicity ploy, then I couldn't care less.

    One man's prayer means a lot less to me than his plans for lasting peace in Israel, Afghanistan, Iraq and the Middle East in general.  (And every time Iran is demonized, it really, really POs me.)

    Parent

    I think he did... (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by mogal on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:36:44 PM EST
    that prayer was tooperfectly written.

    Parent
    If it actually was written impromptu by him (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:41:57 PM EST
    and I'm not convinced that it was, then I give him credit for beautiful writing.

    Parent
    yes (5.00 / 2) (#224)
    by jedimom on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:34:39 PM EST
    everything about this trip was choreographed very well, I think it was leaked, worse I thought the campaign posters ON the wall was awful, for a man with 300 foreign policy advisers for this trip that was incredibly disrespectful.

    Parent
    Plausible deniability; (none / 0) (#143)
    by ChiTownDenny on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:43:44 PM EST
    That's what I'm looking for.  I can't find quotes in google from the Obama campaign.  Also, has it been confirmed by the Israeli newspaper that first published the prayer received it nefariously?

    Parent
    you're right, he loves the laugh he gets from the (none / 0) (#163)
    by suzieg on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 08:57:37 PM EST
    audience when he's used these lines before - if you listen to the audience,they do laugh at his comments, but personally, I find them offensive!

    David Gergen Floats Obama Needs Hillary VEEP (none / 0) (#190)
    by fctchekr on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:19:10 PM EST
    CNN just now, 9:14 CST

    CNN's other pundits didn't even respond. The discussion was about Obama's polling and the fact that he doesn't know how to attack back. But, Gergen said, both Clintons do.

    Other Pundits Roland Martin and new GOP African American female pundit. She repeated the old legend about Clintons' high negatives and was more engaged saying it wasn't a good idea. Roland didn't directly respond but offered other suggestions for the BO Camp. Roland in the tank from day one.

    Which pundit (5.00 / 4) (#229)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:37:22 PM EST
    said yesterday that the Obama campaign is running as though they are confident which is dangerous; and compared unfavorably this to Bill Clinton's having run both presidential campaigns, every day, as though he was losing.

    Parent
    Oh, OK (none / 0) (#196)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:22:48 PM EST
    so since all politicians are by definition arrogant, it's impermissible to ever mention the word in any circumstance relating to politics?

    You're really not making a lot of sense.


    so now you are saying (none / 0) (#197)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:23:05 PM EST
    that since you think ALL politicians are arrogant, I can't call one of them arrogant?

    what is that, the "mommy, mommy, he did it too" defense?

    Go ahead and call McCain arrogant too if youwant to.  I won't object.  Your post here admits Obama is arrogant.  You just don't think he is MORE arrogant than other pols.  But, no one called him MORE arrogant.  They just called him arrogant.  And, if you think all pols are arrogant, then by default, Obama is arrogant.

    Well this has been a crappy day (none / 0) (#208)
    by Lil on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:28:21 PM EST
    except for what andgarden just wrote. Is there still a glimmer of hope?

    Obma Polling (none / 0) (#215)
    by jedimom on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:31:27 PM EST
    It seems like Obama is falling like a lead balloon BEFORE he announces he isnt choosing Hillary, I predict his numbers drop off a cliff once that comes out, I agree with the other posters, much of his number with DEMS I think comes from those thinking he will choose Hill as VP, that was the only chance of me voting for him and I know Im not the only one. Anyone else he picks to most Americans will be unexplainable or unknown. They will go to MAC for security, I will too.

    comment #221 (none / 0) (#232)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:39:25 PM EST
    proves my point.

    instead of providing something obama's about that might make someone interested in voting for him, I am attacked as a racist.

    which is exactly what I said always happens.


    Andgarten... (none / 0) (#241)
    by fctchekr on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 09:52:06 PM EST
    When you say center left, you mean the position Obama now feigns?

    New York Times off on a tangent about racial slurs (none / 0) (#242)
    by fctchekr on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:12:59 PM EST
    I have no idea how a comparison about celebrity to Spears and Hilton, is racially intoned?

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0708/Times_ed_board_McCain_move_racially_tinged.html?showall

    Clark for VP, sign the petition (none / 0) (#243)
    by LLB on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:20:14 AM EST
    I was/am a Hillary supporter.  I'd still love to have her on the ticket for the VP slot.  But if I can't have her, my second choice (and whom I wanted for her VP if she had made the top of the ticket) is Wes Clark. If you agree, please go to http://www.obamaclark.com/
    sign the petition and get others to do the same!