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Thursday Afternoon Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 05:44:19 PM EST
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Hearing over.

Some blogging by me to resume tomorrow.

Open Thread.

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    Thursday Afternoon Open Thread | 131 comments (131 topical)

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    He won't. But, should Bud Selig (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:08:42 PM EST
    reverse the bad call at first and give Galarraga his perfect game?  I say "yes."  LAT

    Also, please note:  there is crying in baseball.

    That should come with a warning (none / 0) (#4)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:15:19 PM EST
    that we have to watch BP propaganda before the real vid starts ;)

    I say yes also.

    Parent

    LAT also has an article re James Cameron (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:19:43 PM EST
    as "expert."  I didn't read it.

    Parent
    Expert in underwater (none / 0) (#11)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:40:02 PM EST
    deepsea camera equip. Could be used to monitor etc. Not sure what's true or not in the area of expertise :) I do think we need to think about independent monitoring of off shore rigs in light of this mess though. BP has been less than forthcoming with correct/truthful info. . . .

    Parent
    And undersea robotic subs (none / 0) (#14)
    by MKS on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:44:47 PM EST
    It is a pretty narrow field and Cameron actually does have some expertise....

    Where is  Scripps in all this?

    Parent

    Pre-cise-ly what I've been wondering, MKS. (none / 0) (#22)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:59:56 PM EST
    Where is Scripps [Institution of Oceanography] in all this?
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Today, the Scripps staff of 1,300 includes approximately 100 faculty, 300 other scientists and some 225 graduate students, with an annual budget of more than $140 million. The institution operates a fleet of four oceanographic research vessels and the research platform R/P FLIP (Floating Instrument Platform) for oceanographic research and has served as manager of the Deep Sea Drilling Program [not oil drilling].


    Parent
    Yes Selig should, (none / 0) (#15)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:45:15 PM EST
    maybe with an asterisk and an explanation in the record books.  But I agree, he won't.

    Parent
    Yes, he should. (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:51:42 PM EST
    And he should also get off his behind and demand money be spent on some review equipment.

    Parent
    Absolutely, but he has already said (none / 0) (#20)
    by coast on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:56:43 PM EST
    he won't.

    Good news for the pitcher though, GM is giving him a new Corvette.  I imagine they have a few extras on hand.

    Parent

    I say yes too (none / 0) (#26)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 07:22:06 PM EST
    I think a perfect game is so rare it should not be spoiled by a point upon which everyone agrees.

    Parent
    As I read elsewhere (none / 0) (#27)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 07:36:07 PM EST
    (And I say this as a Tigers' fan who feels robbed), Galaragga will be remembered as the guy who got the "28-out no hitter".  People will remember that - how many people remember the name of the guy who got a no-hitter last week?

    Infamy.

    Parent

    Roy Halliday, I believe, was last week's (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by caseyOR on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:25:57 PM EST
    perfect game pitcher.

    Parent
    Like Harvey Haddix. (none / 0) (#32)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 07:58:46 PM EST
    People will remember.

    Parent
    Problem is it (none / 0) (#34)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:03:36 PM EST
    will go down in Infamy as a black eye for MLB.  Why Selig would want that to happen when he has the power to overrule now and restore to the pitcher what was rightfully his, is a puzzler, except that Selig has a tendency to be stubbornly stupid.  

    Conflict averse to a fault.  He seems to want to just be left alone to go about his usual noncontroversial duties, and doesn't want to be bothered with difficult stuff.

    Parent

    We agree on so much... (none / 0) (#39)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:12:44 PM EST
    We share an opinion about Selig, we probably both love the game. But it's not a do-over sport... admittedly, the pine tar game comes to mind for a type of do-over, but that wouldn't fit this scenario. It was the last out.

    I understand your indignation here. I'm on the side that this becomes legend, kind of like the changing of the definition that took away Haddix' perfect game because he pitched on into the 13th inning.

    Parent

    Who famously (?) sd.: (none / 0) (#37)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:08:29 PM EST
    I could have put a cup on either corner of the plate and hit it.


    Parent
    Dunno about the "cup" (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:22:34 PM EST
    quote, but I do know that Satchel Page famously said that he'd practice hitting precise places with his fastball by placing a matchbook on the plate.

    Parent
    Another time I heard him say (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:43:04 PM EST
    the top of a Coca Cola bottle.

    Parent
    Breathtakingly bad calls (none / 0) (#28)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 07:41:32 PM EST
    like that in crunch time are why the smarter folks running the other leagues of the NFL and NBA years ago went to instant replay on crucial calls late in the game.   Those two leagues also are very liberal about allowing game officials to get together to overrule an obviously bad field call.  

    But no, MLB is stupidly stubborn in its narrow conservatism when they need to show flexibility and a sense of justice to correct an admitted blunder.  

    Parent

    During Rangers @ Twins game Sunday night (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 07:54:42 PM EST
    all the umpires left the field to look at video as to a ball and just where it hit--top of wall, foul pole, etc.  

    Parent
    Right, MLB allows (none / 0) (#33)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 07:58:55 PM EST
    replay in those narrow fair/foul/fence circumstances.  

    But it needs to reform and come into the 21st C, give each team a replay per game, then in the 8th and 9th innings allow umpire discretion on replay in all calls as they do in the NFL.

    Parent

    But the cry will be--but baseball (none / 0) (#35)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:03:40 PM EST
    games are sooooo slow and sooooo long.  

    Parent
    I look at it this way: (none / 0) (#38)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:12:09 PM EST
    MLB games are already about 3 and a half hours long on average I'd guess.

    What's another 15 minutes to get it right -- especially on "history" nights -- once you're well into 3-hour plus territory?

    Parent

    I'd say the average game is 3 hrs. (none / 0) (#48)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:37:44 PM EST
    Although I have been to a bunch of extra inning games already this season.

    Parent
    We need faster pitchers. (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:38:48 PM EST


    Parent
    I say, let 'em steal already! (none / 0) (#51)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:41:03 PM EST


    Parent
    Heh, The weaker pitchers (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:50:04 PM EST
    make 10 throws to first.

    Just jam the batter high and tight. He'll swing. throw the ol' number one and let the catcher and shortstop earn their money.

    Parent

    I never got that argument (none / 0) (#118)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 07:50:12 AM EST
    Who cares?  For those that go to the games, you pay a good deal of money - you want games to be over in an hour?  

    If you watch on TV, you're at home or in a bar probably, so why do you care if a game is 3 hours?

    Parent

    I dont agree, although I do understand your (none / 0) (#36)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:04:41 PM EST
    position. I'd like to see an end to interleague play and the DH be retired. I won't go so far as to say day games, though! Add an umpire if you must, but let's not think that technology is a panacea for baseball.

    I kind of like that it's fallible, and admittedly so.

    Parent

    totally with you (none / 0) (#44)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:29:27 PM EST
    on end of DH and interleague play

    Parent
    The DH and interleague (none / 0) (#47)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:33:12 PM EST
    play:  two examples of times when MLB has stupidly not stuck with what makes the game special.

    If we could undo Prohibition, MLB can get rid of the DH at least.  Then go to work on the other stuff.

    Parent

    Amen jeff... (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:02:32 PM EST
    the human element is part of what makes baseball so unique and special...and what is more human than error?  The wrong call should stand....though they've opened the pandoras box with the home run replay crap.

    To feel better about the baseball travesty, look at the beauty of the aftermath...the ump watches the replay and goes right over to the Tigers clubhouse and apologizes for his bed-sh*tting...the pitcher and team accept...class acts all around.  Forgiveness...it's a beautiful thing.

    Parent

    Nah, nothing is so unique or (none / 0) (#76)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:27:03 PM EST
    special that it can't tolerate a place for justice by appeal.

    I believe in justice in the courts and the appeal process, in our electoral system and getting votes counted right and fully.  I believe in justice and fair play on the gridiron and hardwood.  

    Baseball should be no different.

    Parent

    As do I... (none / 0) (#84)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:49:07 PM EST
    believe in justice and fair play, as hard as it is to come by sometimes.  Refs and umps are gonna make mistakes though, how far do you go?  Balls and strikes? Pass Interference?  Personal Fouls?

    Getting screwed by a bad call is part of the game...part of life.  As is bouncing back from it, like 28 up 28 down.

    Parent

    from the mobile press register (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:28:19 PM EST
    link

    This spill is beyond BP's capacity. It's time for something to change.

    Why aren't they talking about regular booming, (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:42:50 PM EST
    whereby the oil is diverted into catch basins, or vacuumed up into a tanker.

    Off hand, it might be safe to assume BP is saving money by booming the oil and burning it. And they're even doing a pi$$-poor job of that.

    From the story, BP Canceled Fire Boom Order after Deepwater Horizon Spill:

    Waves must be below 3 feet for booms to work. Conditions have been favorable in terms of wave height every day since May 17, according to a federal data buoy near the site of the spill.

    IIRC, those are also favorable conditions for booming and collecting the oil.

    Parent

    To me, this has been more than obvious (none / 0) (#9)
    by Dr Molly on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:35:00 PM EST
    from the beginning. So much evidence demonstrating their utter incompetence day after day.

    Parent
    Too much focus (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:41:29 PM EST
    on minimizing the actual situation and CYA perhaps?

    Parent
    I don't get the rationale that (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by Dr Molly on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:51:07 PM EST
    BP is the only one who can fix this. It's like saying Summers and Geithner are the only ones who can fix our economy now that they've f*cked us over...

    Parent
    The Obama adminstration does now want (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:53:32 PM EST
    the problem solved...

    I mean, no emergency should be wasted.

    Parent

    That makes perfect sense (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 07:01:52 PM EST
    What administration wouldn't want an ongoing unsolved ecological and p.r disaster sandwiched in between wars and an economy recovering from a virtual free fall?

    Parent
    I do not understand your comment Jim. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dr Molly on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:57:44 PM EST


    Parent
    Excuse the typo.. change now to "not" (none / 0) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:28:41 PM EST


    Parent
    Look up: "The Paranoid Style (5.00 / 0) (#106)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:56:49 PM EST
    of the Right"..if, as I suspect, what you're suggesting is that this is part of some nefarious grand scheme, which relies on unsolved disasters in order to justify "big government" interventions that rob people of their freedoms..

    Parent
    On the way home, I listened (5.00 / 8) (#24)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 07:06:45 PM EST
    to a gentleman who used to be an EPA investigator and now works for an environmental group.  He said, among other things, that BP is calling the shots here, and the government is taking its orders from them.  He said (what I said in the previous thread) that the government should have shoved BP aside from the beginning and pulled in experts from other oil companies to fix this problem and tell BP to open its wallet. He also said that while Holder said they are pursuing criminal charges, he doesn't really believe that will happen, although it should.  He talked about other BP problems he investigated - the Texas City explosion, drilling on the North Slope in Alaska - called them "environmental criminals" - and said it's ridiculous that the criminals are running the investigation.

    He didn't mince words.

    Parent

    Any info as to (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:47:49 PM EST
    why BP being allowed to call the shots?

    Parent
    Jb, I believe you're talking about Scott West, (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:37:54 PM EST
    who has been a federal criminal investigator for 21 years, and retired from the EPA in 2008 as a special agent-in-charge. On June 01/10, he did an Op-ed for TruthOut, BP Gulf Disaster Is a Crime, Not an Accident. Excerpt:
    The idea that a criminal investigation can or should wait is ludicrous. It is an argument that I (and other seasoned SACs in EPA) have heard before, and an argument that seasoned criminal enforcement managers recognize as BS.

    For one thing, I have ignored such pleas before and dispatched criminal investigators immediately or very soon after an environmental incident, including launching an investigation into a BP "accident." The presence of the investigators did not hamper the response. In fact, their presence may have encouraged an even more aggressive response. Their presence provided an avenue for fearful employees to deliver damaging inside information.

    It is not too late, per se, for a criminal investigation, but it will be a much harder endeavor with the passage of this much time. We are brought back to the significant question of why was a criminal investigation (there are other types of investigations and do not be misled by this general term) not initiated immediately in the Deepwater Horizon incident? BP is an environmental criminal recidivist. It is still on probation.

    Democracy Now has reported extensively on BP's Poor Safety Record, the Worst of Any Oil Company in America. But, sweet Jesus, they were actually on probation when they drilled this Gulf well from hell.

    Parent

    BTD, what do you think of the idea of (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:28:58 PM EST
    having a daily thread for comments on the BP spill?

    When comments on the spill get mashed in with a bunch of other stuff, it becomes a nightmare to untangle.

    I mean, the subject is already 'complicated' enough, in and of itself.

    do you think one thread would be enough? (none / 0) (#8)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:32:33 PM EST
    might need a morning and evening oil spill thread.

    Parent
    BP doesn't want us to see images of animals. (none / 0) (#101)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:37:19 PM EST
    I understand why. HuffPo has updated heart-wrenching images of animals suffocating in oil. I wish their headline were a lot more 'sensitive' --  but it's HuffPo.

    The same images were shown on Anderson Cooper, earlier tonight.

    Parent

    Same images shown on Yahoo also (none / 0) (#104)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:44:00 PM EST
    I clicked on one that was linked to a report/story, got all the others. Wish I hadn't . . .

    Parent
    Although don't you think people w/o (none / 0) (#105)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:48:31 PM EST
    much scientific background will become more interested after seeing these photos?

    Parent
    Depends (none / 0) (#108)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 11:13:40 PM EST
    Some of us have seen them before. I think they would prefer the reminder not being out there and the newer gens not seeing them. I totally expected to see these images long before the oil hit the shore. I'm sure I'm not unique. That's why I don't understand the lack of effort re: shores. I do understand the downplay from BP though . . .

    Parent
    Someone on AC 360 said the pelicans (none / 0) (#112)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 01:22:35 AM EST
    at the rescue center were "relaxed", like they were at a "spa"; that they have "plenty of fish to eat" (from a kiddie pool) -- but they weren't eating.

    From what I saw, that was the low point of his show tonight.

    Parent

    Sounds great (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:35:13 PM EST
    I have no idea what this is all about, but one less thing to worry about.

    A daily BP Open Thread it is.

    Now, while I wait for my plane, I will veg for a few hours.

    Peace.

    Parent

    OMG, BTD take both hands and grab! Lol. (none / 0) (#16)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 06:48:17 PM EST
    I kid. But seriously, you can't still NOT know what the BP spill is about. It's coming soon to a town near you.

    It would be great to get that daily BP Open Thread -- then you could learn all about it in one place. I kid again. Would you be 'overseeing' it?

    Parent

    Did you learn anything from today's open (none / 0) (#31)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 07:55:57 PM EST
    thread?  Other than how much people love to argue.?

    Parent
    Yes, I did learn a lot from today's open thread. (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:26:45 PM EST
    I usually do -- especially when people bring in new stories, links, an informed analysis, etc.  

    I hope that a daily open thread on the spill encourages a more substantive conversation -- more gravitas, all around. The sniping is exhausting -- I imagine for all parties.

    *Right now, I'm watching Obama on Larry King -- dunno if it's live though.

    Parent

    There is nothing worse (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 02:58:44 AM EST
    than an always friendly mindless echo chamber :)  Speaking only for me of course :)  It is the internet so nobody knows I'm a dog, and nobody really hurts my feelings anymore either....cuz it is the internet.  Whoever is really giving me the whatfor is probably a Labradoodle.  I would rather learn stuff.

    Parent
    Most of us like to spar, to varying degrees. (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 12:09:05 PM EST
    But, sooner or later, somebody brings out the brickbat -- and it stops being fun, especially for anyone who's on the receiving end.    

    Parent
    Of course. (none / 0) (#129)
    by christinep on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 12:43:43 PM EST


    Parent
    true (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:46:09 PM EST
    that people love to argue

    have my own views of where the bait first got laid on the earlier thread & no doubt others have their views too

    what w/b interesting is an experiment in not going for chum when thrown in pool


    Parent

    That's what I'm aspiring to... (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:02:32 PM EST
    not going for chum when thrown in pool.

    There's no time for that now -- there's way too much at stake.


    Parent

    There are much bigger fish (none / 0) (#93)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:08:44 PM EST
    to fry. But then, there always were.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:06:29 PM EST
    not to make excuses, but I come from one of those eastern european families in which the more you love each other, the more you argue..

    I do find it odd and rather unfathomable though, that enough people could discern such a vast difference between the Democratic frontrunners of '08 that they would STILL be operating a site at which a goodly amount of energy is being put into an unswervingly chivalrous defense of the one (or is it ones?), and a virtual jihad against the other.

    Something about the whole thing smacks of a Rovian, wedge-creating enterprise.  

    Parent

    Doesn't it though (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by christinep on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:41:15 PM EST


    Parent
    If only . . . . (none / 0) (#91)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:05:57 PM EST


    Parent
    Ocean currents likely to carry oil along Atlantic (none / 0) (#109)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 11:27:22 PM EST
    coast -- here's an animation of the oil on one of its projected course -- moving out of the Gulf and up the Atlantic Coast, from National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) and collaborators, June 03/10:
    This animation shows one scenario of how oil released at the location of the Deepwater Horizon disaster on April 20 in the Gulf of Mexico may move in the upper 65 feet of the ocean. This is not a forecast, but rather, it illustrates a likely dispersal pathway of the oil for roughly four months following the spill. It assumes oil spilling continuously from April 20-June 20.


    Parent
    Update (none / 0) (#100)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:36:19 PM EST
    More on our earlier talk....  you wrote [Scientist who are measuring the bottom outflow from the broken pipe, put it at 60-75k BOPD. And, when other known secondary leaks are included, their estimate goes to 100k BOPD.]

    The article you referenced was Steve Werely and his group.  Steve Wereley and his group (one of several appt by the Pres) came back with a number different than the estimate they provided for the article... 12-25k.  Wereley was just on CNN again and re-stated his results.  A second group came back with 12-15k.  There are still two more groups to submit.

    Still, we will know as soon as BP attaches a riser hose to the cap they installed today.

    Parent

    Was he the one who said (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:39:24 PM EST
    his estimates were only minimum estimates?

    Parent
    Anderson Cooper talked to Steve Werely by phone, (none / 0) (#111)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 12:57:36 AM EST
    (June 03/10). I didn't hear anybody say that Obama had appointed Werely, or any of his associates who are measuring the spill. It's my understanding that they're working independently -- at least I hope they are. I typed the following as I listened, so it's close, but by no means a verbatim transcript.
    Werely: You know, the numbers that we came up with...we're talking in the vicinity 12-20,000 barrels per day [BOPD]...potentially considerably more than that are coming out of this pipe...BP said potentially 20% more after they cut off the riser pipe. So there's a lot of oil coming out of there.

    Anderson asked Werely about previous estimates from him and his associates, that were upwards of 70k BOPB [up to 100k BOPD, as per their NYTimes Op-ed, on 05/22/10].

    Werely: There were 3 teams looking at different pieces of evidence to measure the flow. The RITT Straw Team looked at the amount of oil collected at the surface. The Surface Imaging Team looked at the surface slick from flyovers. I am on the Plume Team looking at [underwater] video of the the flow [BP's video].  

    The RITT Team and the Surface Imaging Team have reported a consensus flow rate of 12-19k BOPD.

    The team that I'm on, the Plume team, we have only reported a minimum...and our minimum is 12-25k BOPD, and to quote the report, potentially considerably higher. Sometime early next week the Plume Team will have its final numbers and I can't say what it'll be but, I can say, potentially considerably higher.

    The question in the balance is: how high is "potentially considerably higher". We do know (via PBS), that BP has acknowledged a "worst case scenario" of 60k BOPD. I don't think there's any way in hell they would have fessed up to that, if the rate of flow is one drop less.

    FWIW, I was pleasantly surprised by the level of critique from Anderson and his other guests on his show. I should watch more TV :-).

    Parent

    I just put one up for Friday morning (none / 0) (#114)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 01:48:22 AM EST
    here. Since I don't understand it, I can't really comment about it, so I feel a little still posting about it, but I'm happy to give you a forum to discuss it. [Just don't expect any wise commentary from me on it. :)]

    Parent
    this gets it right (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:52:37 PM EST
    imo about criticism of Obama by Blow & MoDo

    This country's leaders and its people are not participants in a TV reality show or Facebook "friends." There are many serious issues to be addressed and we do not need a weepy, angry, emotional president "feeling" his way to solutions. It is a dearth of critical thinking, contingency planning and discipline that has brought us to our present sorry state.

    link

    agree with that (5.00 / 4) (#81)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:39:53 PM EST
    IMO who cares if the CEO of the US is emotional? All the media nonsense about Obama being emotional or honoring pop musicians, or whatever it is at the moment is.... #$%*&%&#  nonsense. And it is extremely temporary. What will anyone care about it in 2035? They will care, however, how we, and this administration, deal with the BP GOM disaster.

    This should be right up Obama's alley - he's an organizer. and to all those who whine "Obama can't plug the hole (and therefore we have to trust BP)" I say, so what? He can't fly fighter jets either, but they seem to get deployed just fine. He has been late to address this and much has been lost in that oversight. But I'm rooting for him to become CIC of this disaster. The world DOES HAVE INCREDIBLE RESOURCES - in the sense of brains and inventiveness, to address this disaster. I have hope Obama and his administration will rise to this occasion.

    It is so odd how slowly this crisis is unfolding. Usually disasters happen quickly - crashes. Life seems to move so quickly often, not here, this is slow motion. We will know by August, or Christmas or next year if the well can be killed and have an idea of what is and will be devastated. The currents might bring devastation to more. I've often been critical of Obama, but honestly this kind of slow moving acute world changing disaster is above everyone's pay grade. We all have to rise to the occasion - beyond our abilities. That includes the President. I'm glad his loyal dem friends have gotten his attention by yelling and getting p*ssed off. Now, I think he IS engaged and I hope it is not too late. I don't blame him personally (I'm more critical of individual players in his administration, coast guard and... of course BP, and even the EPA.)

    Parent

    Very well said, ZtoA... (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:56:21 PM EST
    to all those who whine "Obama can't plug the hole (and therefore we have to trust BP)" I say, so what? He can't fly fighter jets either, but they seem to get deployed just fine.

    I might change "whine" to "lament", but maybe that's just the mood I'm in right now.

    Parent

    Part of it (none / 0) (#117)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 07:47:20 AM EST
    I think, is that this isn't the first time he's been seen as slow to react.  See Christmas Day bomber, for one.

    This is a pattern, and it isn't playing well with the masses.

    Parent

    To add to the confusion (none / 0) (#1)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 05:49:57 PM EST
    Obama sat down with Larry King today to say he's "furious" about the gulf oil spill, but his job is not to yell at people.

    Here's the fun part:

    Despite the havoc that the oil spill is causing to Gulf fisheries and fragile wetlands, Obama said he still supports off-shore drilling "if it can be done safely." Asked about reports that his administration had extended a moratorium on offshore drilling to shallow water rigs, Obama denied it.

    "Actually the moratorium is not extended to the shallow waters," the president said.

    So, does he not know what his own administration is doing?

    Obviously the President hasn't read (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 05:57:40 PM EST
    the last TL open thread.  Get your story straight man!

    Parent
    I believe it is a mis-step (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 07:17:28 PM EST
    for the president, in his discussions of the BP catastrophe, to do an on the one hand, and on other--the spill is havoc and I am still supportive of offshore drilling (if it can be done safely--I'd say, that that prospect is not looking good).  This, at the time of an emergency, when the gusher continues to gush unabated with an end date as unclear as an emulsion of BP oil and Nalco Corexit.  I hesitate to employ any analogy since disputes may arise over the validity of the parallelism to the loss of its illustrative intent and cause of irritation.  But, just for kicks, let's say, that during an out-of-control fire in Southern California, we need to say, it is havoc for those owners who homes have been destroyed, but I still support fire  Or, in the midst of the Three Mile Island disaster, it was noted that the radiation will effect people for decades, but I still support nuclear energy.

    Parent
    Here's a good analogy. Head of (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 07:42:19 PM EST
    CalFire laments loss of life and property caused by "controlled burn," but, in next breath, says he still supports controlled buring to prevent forest fires.  

    Parent
    don't heads of state and other organizations (none / 0) (#107)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 11:02:59 PM EST
    make those decisions all the time? Regret the horrors of war, yet go to war if they think it is worth the cost, for another example.

    sometimes there is corruption involved, but ususally iIt is just them using their judgement to weigh costs against benefits. I don't agree with their analysis all the time. In light of my newfound knowledge that the oil companies and the government are unprepared to deal with this sort of disaster, I'd rather stop all off shore drilling and pay $8.00 a gallon for gas, or whatever it would cost until we get off the stuff. Maybe we would need to ration gas as well, if the offshore drilling is really a third of the supply. Who's with me? Certainly not any politician I can name.

    I think the WH communication team has been horrible throughout this mess. Mixed messages, lack of clarity on what decisions are being made and why. They don't seem to understand that people can follow this very closely and want to know their reasoning. Huge missteps there, at the very least.

    Parent

    What is safely? (none / 0) (#123)
    by me only on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 10:04:19 AM EST
    In the last thirty years there have been two leaks in the Gulf.  Two Space shuttles have gone down.  Hundreds of aircraft have fallen and tens of millions of people have died in automobile accidents.

    Safe and perfect are two different things.  People are not paying attention to the fact that ships full of oil (our other alternative) have less than a perfect record.  So do pipelines.

    Parent

    His job is not to yell at people? (none / 0) (#116)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 03:02:59 AM EST
    Hmmmmmm....really?  Mr. Rogers for President?  We really are in trouble now.

    Parent
    It's a lovely day in the neighborhood! (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 11:54:54 AM EST


    Parent
    MT, as a person living near the (none / 0) (#127)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 11:58:38 AM EST
    affected coast, does it matter to you how often the President visits and/or whether he puts on his "stern" face?

    Parent
    It doesn't affect me how much (none / 0) (#130)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jun 05, 2010 at 03:30:07 AM EST
    he visits, but like a lot of people....when he seemed more concerned with keeping the nation onboard for future offshore drilling and nobody was paying attention to what was happening down here, I did think he needed a visit to the first ground zero and he needed to go see what was still out there that was going to hit all of us.  Last I heard it has made Pensacola now.  I was busy all day.  Sheen and tar may have made Panama City by now but I've been out of the loop.  In terms of how he could remain so focused on insuring future drilling and we had not even begun to hurt as bad as we were going to, that upset me.  Today seems to be a day that turned a lot of awareness around.  It's sad that it takes the images of the oil soaked wildlife before masses get it, but such things seem to be part of the human condition.  And there has been a peculiar to me phenomenon here locally, that prayer and faith would break down the oil before it made landfall that affected Alabama.  I have ignored all of that around here.  It makes my head hurt and I feel like I could start yelling :)  It's so bizarre how people were worried about future drilling around here and complaining about the "ban" like good Republicans.  They really did seem to think they were going to magically duck the bullet, that somehow they were so special that for them there would be no consequences.  There is going to be a lot of very emotional learning going on down here.  This whole area is slightly more affluent in the region and lives at the beach on the weekends.  Many good Republicans are going to forget the talking points this weekend or next weekend.

    Parent
    I just read a TL side bar headling about (none / 0) (#131)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 05, 2010 at 01:36:49 PM EST
    this disaster signalling the long-awaited end of the world.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#132)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 05, 2010 at 02:31:05 PM EST
    digby has the story. Guess many want to use the disaster for self serving reasons. The religious freaks, dovetail nicely with the Obama empty suit crowd here.

    President Barack Obama embodies many of qualities of the Antichrist, as described in Revelation 13:5-7: "The beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for 42 months. It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God ... It was given authority over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it."

    Well not quite the empty suit crowd, but certainly an alliance can be struck, no?

    But then again there is the Obama is secretly GOP meme, no different from Bush.

    Yet through a biblical lens, it's hard to see the oil spill as anything but God's punishment for greed and a disrespect of Creation--and both of those sins fall mostly on the shoulders of the Republicans, who have been aggressively lobbying for more offshore drilling, without, obviously, ensuring that appropriate safeguards are in place.

    Now there is a workable alliance, no?

    Parent

    I read this to my spouse (none / 0) (#133)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 06, 2010 at 08:46:51 AM EST
    and he asks, "How come only disasters that happen to America trigger the end of times?"  The tsunami didn't seem to indicate that.  Neither do volcanoes or earthquakes.  It seems to take something manmade, but the lies that led to the aggressive manmade attack of Iraq which then led to over 200,000 people being killed doesn't do it either.  It takes the bible belt's loss of the gulf, its beaches, and this seasons tourists to trigger such a thing.

    Parent
    Name the player Dick Allen spoke of: (none / 0) (#40)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:16:36 PM EST
    "__ __ was so mean he would knock you down and then meet you at home plate to see if you wanted to make something of it."

    Bob Gibson? (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:28:46 PM EST


    Parent
    Sounds like a good (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:29:48 PM EST
    description of Bob Gibson.

    Parent
    Wow, Dick Allen (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:30:16 PM EST
    I haven't heard that name in years. Thinking of who had a reputation for being mean in the 70's, I gotta go withi Bob Gibson of the hated Cardinals. I think even Ernie Banks didn't
    like him.

    Parent
    Just as an aside, Ernie Banks and I (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by caseyOR on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:32:13 PM EST
    have the same birthday. It's a big baseball birthday. Ernie and I share the day with Jackie Robinson and Nolan Ryan.

    Parent
    you all are too good. (none / 0) (#49)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:37:54 PM EST
    Remember when Dick Allen was called Ritchie Allen?

    Wili says Sabermetrician Will James (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:46:34 PM EST
    saus Allen was the second most controversial MLB player--behind Hornsby.

    Parent
    Allen said, famously, (none / 0) (#64)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:58:04 PM EST
    "I can play anywhere. First, Third, outfield, anywhere but Philadelphia."

    Parent
    Hey, that's not controversial, (none / 0) (#68)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:06:26 PM EST
    that's funny!  Who knew, Dick Allen was a brilliant wit!

    Parent
    Oh, he WAS funny (none / 0) (#85)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:49:21 PM EST
    I remember that about him. I lived near Chicago when he was with the Sox.  Spoke his mind.

    Parent
    I remember him writing BOOO (none / 0) (#77)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:30:03 PM EST
    one time in oversized letters in the dirt between first and second in responce to the merciless Philly fans..

    He had a beautiful swing: at the plate he was one of those guys who looked so relaxed that you'd almost think he was going to go to sleep at any moment, until the ball was almost at the plate, when he would sort of coil-and-strike like a cobra..

    Parent

    What I recall (dimly) about Allen (none / 0) (#62)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:57:09 PM EST
    was that he was one of the most unpopular big hitter stars in the game in that period.  Moody and not very approachable was the rep.  But that's about all I can recall.

    Dunno about controversial or what constitutes it.  There was of course Ty Cobb, a real essobee on and off the field.  Talk about mean.  Bob Gibson was basically a gentleman off the field, and never tried to hurt a player.  Not so Cobb.

     

    Parent

    Gibson "threw inside" (none / 0) (#79)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:32:40 PM EST
    a fair amount, I remember that..

    Parent
    Yeah, no love lost with us cubs fans (none / 0) (#86)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:50:32 PM EST


    Parent
    Speaking of Cubs (none / 0) (#94)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:14:01 PM EST
    Fergie Jenkins was no chopped liver, either..

    Parent
    Ha! Very true (none / 0) (#99)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:35:46 PM EST
    I'm sure Cardinals fans feel the same way about Fergie that I feel about Gibson.

    Parent
    Teams in the 60s hated facing a few (none / 0) (#87)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:51:31 PM EST
    pitchers: Gibson, Drysdale, Stan Wilson, Jim Bunning, Juan Marechal... good pitchers to begin with, and wiling to throw inside with a 3-0 count...

    Parent
    Stan Williams, argh! not wilson. (none / 0) (#88)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:52:26 PM EST


    Parent
    I've been amazingly busy too (none / 0) (#52)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:41:54 PM EST
    But, for those interested, here are some Kagan Memos. I linked directly to one relating to abortion rights.

    I have a feeling that people will take what they want from it, but it strikes me as very mainstream.

    See also (none / 0) (#53)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:43:12 PM EST
    the summarizing Times article.

    Parent
    What does your summer look like? (none / 0) (#55)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:47:10 PM EST


    Parent
    Let's just say (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:57:33 PM EST
    that I've spent the last two days in a court room too.

    Parent
    Thanks so much for both of those stories. (none / 0) (#59)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:51:05 PM EST
    Still watching Larry and Obama here.

    Parent
    Very interesting. Hope no one ever (none / 0) (#95)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 10:21:41 PM EST
    exposes the memos I wrote to DCA Justice when I was his research attorney!  Anyway, Ms. Kagen is fearless in expressing her opinion.  Didn't see any cites to cases she relied on.  And she has no hesitation in criticizing SCOTUS.  Gutsy.

    Parent
    Lakers/Celtics (none / 0) (#56)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:47:46 PM EST
    Right now, watching the matchup, I have a deja vu feeling as a Laker fan, even though we have a little lead early. Gasol is just useless against Boston, they scare him, he plays timid and unsure of himself. Thankfully, Garnett isn't close to the offensive threat he used to be.

    Kobe is, much like the 2008 finals, being blanketed on D. And has 2 fouls in the first qtr. As does Fisher, who can't keep up with the Boston guards.

    But we're up at the quarter break. LA needs to relax and toughen up, if that makes sense.  

    The 2-3-2 format they use in the finals will also be to the Lakers great disadvantage, especially if they can't win the first two games at home.

    Right now, tho, it looks like it's going to be a tough, physical, grudging series. I'm pulling hard for the purple and gold. It'll be a hard won repeat crown, if they're good enough to keep it.

    And the memoir blog is back, take a peek.

    The Early Daze Interrupted - Memorial Day.

    And that arena is a graveyard (none / 0) (#61)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:54:16 PM EST
    There's no consistent noise/energy inside Staples Center, they make it so easy on the Celtics. I envy the atmosphere Boston gets at their place.

    Parent
    Bynum, Bynum, Bynum (none / 0) (#65)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 08:59:48 PM EST
    If Andrew Bynum's knee and mind allow him to tough it out through this series, and give the Lakers that third inside big that makes them so hard to beat, then I like L.A.'s chances.  Big if.

    Parent
    St. John's Own... (none / 0) (#71)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:13:49 PM EST
    Ron Artest with 5 quick ones...he's all I got to root for in this stinkin' finals.

    Good stuff on the blog and saving the feline!  All the help you were:)

    Parent

    TY, my man (none / 0) (#74)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:23:30 PM EST
    I forgot to mention Artest, which makes me feel good actually, since it reminds me how many more weapons we have this finals as opposed to 2008.

    They seemed to get in a good groove in the second qtr, made some adjustments, maybe my concerns are for naught. Hope so.

    2-3-2, though, I hate that format.

    Parent

    Early L.A. game time (none / 0) (#67)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:02:46 PM EST
    for Lakers fans, 6 pm.  They've just battled the freeways to get there barely in time, if they're lucky, and the crowd hasn't had time to settle in yet, would be my guess.

    Not that Lakers fans are going to outshout Boston fans overall.  Not in their nature, and it just isn't the hardcore sports town Boston is.

    Parent

    LA boy born and bred (none / 0) (#69)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:08:53 PM EST
    I know the situation with time and traffic. Doesn't matter, Staples is a crappy home court, very little advantage in terms of atmosphere and noise. What, David Spade and Mrs. Adam Sandler are gonna intimidate from the court seats?

    Always been that way, even at the Forum.  Sure it can GET loud. Other places STAY loud from tip to buzzer.

    Parent

    Didn't mean to sound snipey, btw (none / 0) (#70)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:10:17 PM EST
    your points were all true, i just hate my hometown's arena/stadium vibes. then again, there was the raiders.  yikes.

    Parent
    LA sucks as a sports "town" (none / 0) (#73)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:20:41 PM EST
    I can say that, I was born there.

    Raiders shoulda never gone there.

    Parent

    I remember going to a (none / 0) (#72)
    by brodie on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 09:18:08 PM EST
    few games at the Forum (originally, the "Fabulous Forum", later something bank-corporate ...).   Jack Nicholson, that chubby gridiron coach from USC, the ex Mrs Cary Grant Dyan Cannon, always could be seen in the court seats.  

    Yep, plenty of us half watched the games, half cee-leb watched ...

    Yes, laid back then, as it's probably laid back today at a new arena.  

    It's L.A. after all.

    My memory of some Dodger games at Chavez Ravine isn't much different:  place is full or nearly so, but it's awfully quiet.  Day or night.  Even when they had championship teams.

    Noisiest fans I've ever heard, consistently, in L.A. are the SC football fans.

    Parent

    See TL sidebar for results of (none / 0) (#110)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 03, 2010 at 11:55:33 PM EST
    man who tucked loaded pistol into his waistband.  Not good.  Seonc Amendment rights coupled with lack of good judgment.

    U.S. Citizen, Killed In Israeli Flotilla Raid (none / 0) (#113)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 01:30:09 AM EST
    (their headline not mine): LINK:
    A U.S. citizen was among those killed in Israel's flotilla raid Monday, the AP reports. ABC News, quoting the Anatolian news agency, reports that Dogan was shot at "close range, with four bullets in his head and one in his chest."


    Still waiting.... (none / 0) (#119)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 08:36:50 AM EST
    for Marco Rubio and the Florida Tea Party brigade to protest the $15 million awarded for retraining of space shuttle employees. Big government spending! Helping people that have had multi-years notice of their job end date.

    Crickets.....

    Sh*t ruff... (none / 0) (#120)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 08:55:05 AM EST
    I never seem to here them b*tch about drug war spending by an out of control government either, never mind 2 occupations and military presence the world over...except maybe that we ain't spending enough on those socialist programs that them warm and fuzzy feelings:)

    Pikers.

    Parent

    Yup.... (none / 0) (#122)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 09:44:43 AM EST
    there is wasteful spending...and then there is the spending on their priorities. Never a waste there!

    Interesting interview on Jon Stewart the other night with a leader at the American Enterprise Institute. Contrary to what people like John Fund and other tea party supporters say all the time, the AEI polls indicate (or so this guy says) that people are not mad about bank bailouts - it was the auto company bailouts that got them riled up. Money going to union members, you know. Certainly makes sense with the timing of when the tea parties took hold. But now they want to claim outrage at bank bailouts as their reason for being.

    Really gets my goat.

    Parent

    The union-bashing... (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 10:15:18 AM EST
    is based in jealousy...I am convinced.  Non-union private sector wages and benefits have been gettin' crappier and crappier, and instead of takin' it up with the bossman, who has seen his share get fatter and fatter, they kick the union dog for having the sense to get together and collectively bargain, and kick the immigrant dog for being hard up enough to work for even less.

    I can understand how hard it can be to come to grips with the fact it's a giant f*ckin' con here in the land of the not free enough...people will tie themselves in a knot of hatin' to avoid facing that hard dose of truth...and look like rabid fools.

    Parent

    That (none / 0) (#125)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 11:01:15 AM EST
    And the fact that the auto loans are paid off (albeit in stock - but look at the quarter the Big 3 had).

    And as for the banks - still waiting on seeing that money, aren't we?

    Parent

    Another weak month for jobs (none / 0) (#121)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 04, 2010 at 08:58:59 AM EST
    Except for temporary census workers.

    WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- U.S. nonfarm payrolls expanded by a seasonally adjusted 431,000 in May, but virtually all the new jobs were temporary jobs at the U.S. Census, leaving private-sector hiring very weak, the Labor Department reported Friday.

    Excluding 411,000 temporary Census workers, payrolls rose by 20,000 in May. According to the survey of 400,000 business establishments, private-sector payrolls increased by 41,000, the fifth straight monthly gain.

    The payrolls growth came in weaker than the 540,000 increase expected by economists surveyed by MarketWatch.

    SNIP

    The decline wasn't particularly good news, however, because the drop was due to 322,000 people dropping out of the labor force, partially reversing April's 805,000 increase. While unemployment dropped by 287,000 to 15 million for May, employment also fell, dipping 35,000 to 139.4 million.

    The participation rate dropped by two-tenths of a percentage point, to 65%.

    An alternative measure of unemployment, which includes discouraged workers and those forced to work part-time because of the weak economy, fell to 16.6% from 17.1%.



    Thursday Afternoon Open Thread | 131 comments (131 topical)

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