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    Ferguson (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 04:40:07 PM EST
    Just returned from a Ferguson Holiday luncheon at their newly renovated Civic Center. The facility is on the outskirts of Ferguson, well away from any picketed or looted area. It was sold out - no last minute cancellations  - which was a good sign. The attendees were a good mix of older adults from both races. Good food and shared fun is IMO one of the best ways to promote better relationships. Tomorrow might bring complete chaos but today life goes on and it is a good thing.

    Tis a very good thing.... (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by kdog on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 05:25:00 PM EST
    Good food and shared fun is IMO one of the best ways to promote better relationships

    May I be so bold as to suggest it may be the only way...

    Parent

    I came away from that luncheon (none / 0) (#7)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 06:06:38 PM EST
    feeling good about the shared experience only to read about the KKK passing out fliers in the area threatening to kill protesters. I can not think of anything that would be more detrimental to an already volatile situation than the presence of the KKK.

    The police force and the KKK lined up together shooting protesters that just happen to be African America (since it is not about race) would ignite the entire country.  

    Parent

    That's quite an assumption... (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by unitron on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 08:22:16 PM EST
    ...that the local police are going to ally themselves with the KKK to commit mass murder rather than that they will attempt to maintain order and prevent anyone of any color from inflicting violence on anyone of any color.

    Parent
    A stretch, maybe, maybe not (none / 0) (#19)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 09:08:47 PM EST
    Not much difference in the Clan's pronouncement that they will use lethal force under MO laws and the statement of this police officer.

    Parent
    One officer making an insane (2.25 / 4) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 09:41:39 PM EST
    statement during the first mob actions is meaningless.

    Parent
    Not just one instance (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 10:34:31 PM EST
    Just a couple of more examples:

    Glendale officer Matthew Pappert, was fired Thursday for having posted on Facebook that Ferguson protesters should be "put down like rabid dogs."

    "Policemen are very cynical. I know I am," Page says from a podium on the video. "I hate everybody. I'm into diversity. I kill everybody."

    Not meaningless at all and as telling as your use of the words "mob action" rather than than protesters.

    Parent

    Why is your initial instinct ... (5.00 / 4) (#39)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 07:24:05 AM EST
    ... almost always to defend questionable or otherwise unacceptable behavior, whenever it so happens to:
    • Be institutionalized in an agency of authority;
    • Wear a uniform; and / or
    • Have an (R) behind the name?

    You ever heard of the Rampart scandal, in which an entire division of the Los Angeles Police Dept. went rogue?

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Donald (1.00 / 6) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:20:07 AM EST
    Why do you always respond with

    "_____" (Insert American institution) bad.

    My point was that the comments are months old and the situation has changed. If people keep on acting like it hasn't then there will be riots.

    Self fulfilling predictions.

    Yall come back now, ya hear!?

    Parent

    ... without either trying to move the goal posts on the subject, or resorting to juvenile insults and taunts? If you're not willing to engage others as an adult, then the rest of us are wasting our time with you, because you're not a serious person and your apparent goal here is to blog-clog.

    Parent
    I answered you the way I answered (1.00 / 1) (#193)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 11:42:12 AM EST
    because your question was of the "Do you still beat your wife?" category. It was an attempt to insult by using a question. I responded in kind.

    It's funny. You claim I never criticize the government and Mordriggan claims I don't show government workers any respect.

    Now, your view of me is that I always support authority. My view of you is that you always find the country's actions as bad.

    Both are partially true.

    Why don't we agree to disagree and keep the debate about specifics and leave the game playing out??

     

    Parent

    No, I've jus stated that (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 12:29:06 PM EST
    your contempt of postal workers is inconsistent with your Social Liberal Patroit act.

    You're going have to do better than that if you want to retain even a nanogram of believability these days.

    Parent

    Maybe you should call the police (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 04:57:29 AM EST
    departments and the mayors of north county St. Louis who are militarizing their police forces and telling residents to stock up on food since it might become so dangerous that they will not be able to leave their homes.

    Residents of town near Ferguson warned: Be ready

    Berkeley officials passed out flyers this week urging its 9,000 residents to be prepared just as they would in the event of a major storm, with plenty of food, water and medicine on hand in case they're unable to leave home for several days.



    Parent
    Oh, forgot to use the correct (none / 0) (#20)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 09:17:00 PM EST
    phrase from the Clan.

    use lethal force against any protesters in Ferguson they deem to be violent.

    See the protesters don't have to actually be violent to be shot down, the Clan just has to decide they are violent. The laws are such that is all the justification that they need.

    A police officers life does not actually have to be in danger from an unarmed person either running away from them or standing across from them in a protest line, they just have to decide that they feel threatened. The laws are such that is all the justification that they need.

    Parent

    Yeah... (none / 0) (#51)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:11:23 AM EST
    ... law enforcement ties to the klan is cRaZy talk...
    "We(the Klan) are setting up a reward/fund for the police officer who shot this thug, he is a hero! We need more white cops who are anti-Zog and willing to put Jewish controlled black thugs in their place."

    Even if officers aren't always physically wearing the hoods themselves, they sure seem to be aligned with the KKK's agenda. LINK

    Ku Klux Kops

    Collaboration between hate groups and law enforcement has a long history. The predecessors to today's police departments were the slave patrols of the antebellum era.

    I hate to say it, but law enforcement has a cancer in its midst.



    Parent
    Speaking of sharing, where ll you be Fri. @ (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 11:25:26 PM EST
    about 9:30 pm?

    Parent
    Oh sh*t... (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 08:33:45 AM EST
    I totally forgot you we're headed to town around this time...I'm actually headed north for a weekend getaway, centered around a dose of Phil Lesh & Friends at the Capitol Theater in Port Chester.  

    And special friends indeed...Larry Campbell & Teresa Williams in the band for this show, long time Levon Helm cohorts.  

    Plus a little hiking at Bear Mtn...few places more beautiful than upstate NY in fall, and the kaleidoscope of color.

    Rain check pal!

    Parent

    Enjoy. I am enjoying the fall (none / 0) (#44)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 08:44:27 AM EST
    color in Central Park.

    Parent
    Nice... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 08:47:29 AM EST
    looks like we dodged this artic blast/polar vortex/freezepocalypse the weatherman was ranting about...no freezing temps here!

    Parent
    25 in Austin overnight! (none / 0) (#52)
    by Angel on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:12:20 AM EST
    35 in Houston... (none / 0) (#54)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:15:25 AM EST
    ...suppose to last through the weekend, it is coming for you.

    It is rare for us to go below freezing and it just might happened in November this year.

    Parent

    I'll be back in April. (none / 0) (#71)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:21:02 AM EST
    Is that a promise (none / 0) (#149)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 08:06:43 PM EST
    or a threat?  :-)

    Parent
    I am quite certain the dawg (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:05:09 PM EST
    considers it a promise.

    Parent
    ZtoA, in response to the withholding of (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 05:58:59 PM EST
    Images that originally took place concerning the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.  It hit our house pretty hard when they banned images of our coffins coming home. That was the only way the democracy could grasp its loss respectfully.  It might be considered abusive to show the bodies, the coffins are the only respectful way for the nation to tally its losses.  The democracy was supposed to stay out of it and the military and the families were supposed to suffer in silence, there would be no protesting either if they could help it....very scary time.

    The only people who had the power to shut down the BushCo neocons were THE PEOPLE.

    Modern warfare struggles to be more humane, something the brave discuss is that on this road don't we risk it just becoming more palatable?  Shouldn't war cost everyone so dearly they are doubled over in pain?  Isn't that how people decide to choose something different at that point?

    Uninformed voters though can't make informed decisions or choices.


    Charlie Pierce on my sweet Claire (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 01:43:37 AM EST
    But at least three Democrats voted against Reid: Claire McCaskill of Missouri, Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota.
    ...
    McCaskill faulted Reid for failing to open up floor debates and staging votes that were destined to fail but win political points.

    ...But McCaskill has proven herself to be a genuinely Liebermanesque menace. She's the one that needs watching when the tough votes come up next year. I think she'd sell the party for parts in exchange for three points in the next Gallup Poll of Missouri. link

    What a tool. I normally don't do personality politics but I make an exception for my sweet Claire. I don't like her voting record or her policies but I have interacted with her and I don't like her as a person.

    Who's surprised by this? (5.00 / 4) (#40)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 08:01:55 AM EST
    The top-ranking officer in the American military said on Thursday that the US is actively considering the direct use of troops in the toughest upcoming fights against the Islamic State (Isis) in Iraq, less than a week after Barack Obama doubled troop levels there.

    General Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, indicated to the House of Representatives armed services committee that the strength of Isis relative to the Iraqi army may be such that he would recommend abandoning Obama's oft-repeated pledge against returning US ground troops to combat in Iraq.

    Retaking the critical city of Mosul, Iraq's second largest, and re-establishing the border between Iraq and Syria that Isis has erased "will be fairly complex terrain" for the Iraqi security forces that the US is once again supporting, Dempsey acknowledged.

    "I'm not predicting at this point that I would recommend that those forces in Mosul and along the border would need to be accompanied by US forces, but we're certainly considering it," he said.

    Link

    Why would anyone be surprised (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by CoralGables on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 08:11:47 AM EST
    Top military officials that speak out in favor of war spend their lives planning for war. Unlucky for them, they don't make those decisions. They just spend their waking hours salivating at the thought.

    Parent
    With Black Friday coming, here's (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:32:45 AM EST
    Here You Go... (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:43:48 AM EST
    ...some good consumers already in line.

    If Corporate America designed human beings, these idiots would be the prototypes, camping out in line for two weeks to save maybe $200.  Which works out to about $ 0.60/hr.

    Parent

    A Trader Joe's opened here recently (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by vml68 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 02:46:50 PM EST
    and people waited in line overnight to be the first ones in the store!
    I can almost understand a 50" TV, but a grocery store?

    Parent
    As Chris Rock said... (none / 0) (#78)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:51:52 AM EST
    in his recent SNL monologue, we're a couple years away from 9/11 sales...there is nothing our society will not commercialize the sh*t out of...nothing is sacred, nothing.

    Parent
    What Better Day for a Sale on Flags (none / 0) (#82)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 11:35:02 AM EST
    Here are some 9/11 sales from 2013.

    Monday, I went to Macy's and got the Veterans Day sale price, the sale, which is still going on, is a week long.

    Parent

    That card says it all (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by sj on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:47:41 PM EST
    K-Mart is opening at 6 am on Thanksgiving Day, (5.00 / 4) (#104)
    by Angel on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 02:17:38 PM EST
    will be open 42 hours straight.  Ugh.  

    However, several major retailers such as Costco, TJ Maxx, Nordstrom and Publix will not be open on Thanksgiving Day, instead letting their employees have the day off to enjoy family time.  Hallelujah!

    Parent

    Yup, the Pope and Patti Smith (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by nycstray on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 02:38:07 PM EST
    Let me recommend... (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by desertswine on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:24:59 PM EST
    Smith's book "Just Kids" about herself and Robert Mapplethorpe.  Some sections of it are quite beautiful.

    Parent
    No... (none / 0) (#110)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 02:55:42 PM EST
    Hmm, wonder what she thinks of this one? (none / 0) (#111)
    by nycstray on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 03:02:14 PM EST
    Sh*t... (none / 0) (#112)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 03:02:39 PM EST
    any chance we can poach Frank to run for Pres in 2016? ;)

    I wonder what on earth could be considered blasphemous about a killer tune like "Because The Night"?  Poor Springsteen can't catch a break, first the loony right is ragging on him for performing the All-American CCR classic "Fortunate Son" at the Concert for Valor, now some of Frank's nemesis' in the church are calling "Because The Night" blasphemous.

    Party Poopers on the march!

    Parent

    If every song about lust is blashpemous (none / 0) (#117)
    by ruffian on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 03:48:19 PM EST
    ...that is a long list!

    Did you see Bruce also did his stripped down version of 'Born in the USA' at that concert...which is decidedly not the anthem Reagan tried to make it. But boy, it sure seemed to speak to those veterans.

    Parent

    He also did 'The Promised Land' (none / 0) (#118)
    by ruffian on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 03:50:52 PM EST
    which I had never thought of as a song about a war-scarred veteran. It was very moving in that context.

    Parent
    I did not see the concert... (none / 0) (#120)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 03:55:34 PM EST
    just heard the Fox News cheese and whine after-party...I'm sure HBO will re-run.

    It's a new low to call "Fortunate Son" anything but American as god damn apple pie and baseball.

    And it's amazing how to this day so many people get "Born in the USA" so wrong...though it's no surprise it flew right over Ray-guns head.

    Parent

    It's available On Demand (none / 0) (#133)
    by nycstray on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:51:27 PM EST
    and replaying tonight @7PM your time, also avail on HBOGO link. Right hand corner has a "schedule" link/button. I'll prob watch it tonight as I missed it also. Mom told me about it . . .

    Parent
    Yo, dawg! WTF was their problem with (none / 0) (#161)
    by nycstray on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:55:13 PM EST
    the CCR song?! I just saw it and kinda thought it rocked . . .

    BTW, watching it on demand HBOGO right now, so you will be able to catch it.

    Parent

    Uh oh. (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by lentinel on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 11:02:45 AM EST
    NYTimes
    Affordable Care Act's Cost of Coverage to Increase in 2015

    Many Americans who bought insurance under the health care law could face price increases next year of as much as 20 percent unless they switch plans.

    What in the world is going on here?

    Right now, the only thing the Democrats might have going for them in 2016 is the ACA.

    If that is in trouble, we are in for a big big mess in 2016.

    Mandates and penalties.
    Why in the world can't we just have universal healthcare as France has - or Canada? Healthcare as a right.

    I know the answer to that question - and it ain't pretty.

    Lentinel: You might want to read further (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by christinep on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 02:17:02 PM EST
    While the cherries that we sometimes pick may satisfy what we want to believe ... it may be useful not only to read politalkix cite nearby on the growing success of the ACA, but also to look into the growing number of stories/reports on the wide variation in premiums (ranging from a 20% rise in Alaska to a 20% decrease in Mississippi, e.g.)  The average appears to be relatively stable at a 2 to 7 percent range in most populated areas.

    Overall, the success rate keeps growing; and, with each month, more people seem to want to be a part of it. You might want to hold your fire, then, as the numbers roll out and the positive facts roll in.  Seriously ... I'm sure that the fact that millions of people are now insured who weren't or couldn't be before ACA relief is something to laud, at the very least.  In the meantime, I wouldn't worry too much about the ACA's prognosis ... despite the many attacks, politically & legally, the momentum has shifted in a positive direction this year.

    Parent

    ObamaCare is a success, will become stronger (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by Politalkix on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 11:18:25 AM EST
    link

    Real data obtained from polls conducted on people who actually enrolled show that 74% give ObamaCare an "excellent" or "good" rating.

    Space is not a silent void. Music abounds. (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by caseyOR on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 12:29:59 PM EST
    NASA has released recordings from space of the sounds that planets emit. These are beautiful musical sounds. Each planet's music is different and distinct.

    Take a listen to this.

    I am awestruck once again by the seemingly limitless beauty of space.

    Slado... (3.67 / 3) (#1)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 04:26:31 PM EST
    ...I didn't want this to go unanswered, so I am reposting:

    What exactly is wrong with ~10 million people, including republicans, being insured that were not before, exactly.  What is your beef with ACA, exactly ?  Not what your party thinks of it, not what someone told you, not how bad Obama sucks, what parts of the bill do you take issue with ?



    The better question for Slado would be, (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Anne on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 05:39:47 PM EST
    "would you be alive today if it weren't for the insurance that has paid the cost of treating your cancer for the many years you've been battling it?"

    - or -

    "at what point would you have resigned yourself to death at a young age because you had no insurance and couldn't afford the cost of keeping yourself alive?"

    Those are two things that many people, without insurance, have had to face that perhaps they don't now.

    I don't mean to be crass or cruel in asking these questions, but I find it rather crass and cruel the way you have belittled and minimized the very real medical and financial plight millions of people have had to deal with because they lacked insurance.

    No, the ACA isn't going to be anything near the panacea the system needs if it is going to function well going forward, but I truly have to wonder how you can seemingly begrudge people the opportunity you've had.

    Parent

    Are you sure that those with cancer, (none / 0) (#8)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 06:07:08 PM EST
    and no insurance, are by definition sentenced to death?

    If you or a loved one has already been diagnosed with cancer and is uninsured, ask to speak with an oncology social worker or financial counselor at the facility that provided the diagnosis. These individuals should be able to guide you through the process of obtaining treatment. Some who are uninsured are able to set up payment plans, or negotiate a discounted payment with the treating facility. Others may qualify for Medicaid, county medical care or hospital charity care. Depending on the state in which you live, you may also have access to a high-risk insurance pool.

    It can feel overwhelming to face cancer without health insurance. Many without insurance are able to obtain excellent care, but it usually takes persistence and creativity.

    Note that I am not saying it's preferable to face cancer without insurance, just that your question is a tad hyperbolic.

    Parent

    Not all treatment is equal (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 06:22:57 PM EST
    "Attainable" treatment isn't necessarily the most successful available or most knowledgeable and skilled.  Went through this with our son when insurance denied him what he needed.  What was attainable then, would not have saved his life, it was what was unattainable because nobody would or could pay for it that he needed.  Other people were getting it, people from Canada...people who were from different states and insurers...but not him.

    Parent
    Sadly I think you are correct. (none / 0) (#11)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 07:01:57 PM EST
    We have experienced treatment with insurance that turned out not to be the best available.

    Parent
    People need to research on their own (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 07:40:29 PM EST
    And ask a lot of questions.  One of the biggest problems prior to ACA was insurer denials. ACA has attempted to address that.  Will it be overall successful at that?  I don't know.

    We haven't had any kinds of those difficulties since ACA was signed into law.  And even before the ACA took affect, Congress and the President addressed what amounted to the murder by spreadsheet of American children who were ill.

    I know that there are ACA mechanisms now to address and challenge insurer denials.

     

    Parent

    High risk pool insurance is very (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 06:29:37 PM EST
    expensive. Payment plans require the individual has at least a moderate income and is able to maintain that income during treatment. Just the initial determination and form make up and positioning for radiation treatment was over $37,000 six years ago, a discount for just that one piece would leave a person owing thousands of dollars. In MO a person without dependent children can not qualify for Medicaid. Some hospitals may write off some of the costs of your hospital treatment if you have little income and are without assets but you still have physician and surgeon bills.

    Some of the new treatments cost in excess of $10,000 per pill or per shot. Life saving treatment may be delayed or abandoned while trying to find a way, any way, to pay for the treatment.  

    I'm not saying that your rebuttal is completely without a grain of truth but it presents the best case scenario and not reality in too many cases.  

    Parent

    Fair enough. (1.00 / 1) (#12)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 07:02:18 PM EST
    Another thing that you may (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 07:42:27 PM EST
    not have considered. A person without insurance and with limited income often puts off seeing a doctor since doctor visits and tests are expensive. A delay in diagnosing a life threatening illness like cancer, means that it is much farther advanced than it would have been if caught earlier. The further advanced the disease is the more likely death will occur and the more expensive the treatment.

    Parent
    sometimes people with insurance put off going to the doctor since doctors are still expensive even with insurance, and also it is difficult and a pita to schedule and keep appointments when your occupation keeps you very busy.

    Yes, last time I tried to make an appointment with my doctor I was first asked, accusingly, "It's been over 3 years since you've been here. What doctor have you been seeing?" as though I was cheating on my doctor.

    I explained that I haven't been sick, and was told that I was now a "new patient" and that the first available "new patient" appointment was about 3 months away, and there would be a $35 charge to pull my files out of the warehouse.

    That was about 2 years ago. I ended up finding out the info I needed about my medical question on the interwebs, and I still haven't seen a doctor.

    Though I guess I probably should, one of these days...

    Parent

    I Can Relate... (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:50:54 AM EST
    ...still trying to track down my medical records after a really bad string of doctors.

    But three or four years ago, i said F it, I am tired of going to these medical malls and decided to go to a guy close to where I work, two doctors in a cr@ppy office that got me in the next week.

    Best decision I ever made, two doctors, a lab tech and several nurses with the occasional medical student.  My physicals now consist of walking in and being escorted the examine room, with the doctor 5 mins behind.  And when I leave, a scheduled appointment in two weeks to discuss my test results.  A half hour dedicated to me, to discuss my results, and any follow up question I might have from the exam.

    No over scheduling, no huge waiting room, and back when I felt a lump in a place that guys don't want lumps, a quick visit and off site for a sonogram.  Same thing, a scheduled follow-up to review my results which were positively negative.

    Not sure if I got lucky, or just unlucky when I had the mindset that bright and shiny meant better in terms of medical treatment.  Who knows, I didn't go to medical school, but I do know, that my yearly exam is done like clockwork, and I don't hesitate to go because the experience is almost pleasant.  Maybe my memory is warped, but it reminds me of being a kid and going in, friendly people that seem genuinely concerned about my well being who enjoy their jobs.

    I would advise going in regardless of facility, if not for you, then for the people who may want you around for a long time.  Annual physicals, because of ACA are free.  It would shame for a person with insurance to not be diagnosed of something very treatable, because of the Medical Mall mentality pushed them to self diagnosis, there are other options.

    Parent

    problem with our medical system is the docs.

    For every doc I've had that I thought was great, there have been several that I thought were middling, at best.

    I like your idea about finding a doc close to work. There is a major hospital w/in a mile of my office, so there are plenty of nearby docs.

    My present doc, the one I haven't seen in about 5 years now, is right around the corner from my home, which was really only convenient if I was able to get the very first appointment time in the AM before work.

    fwiw, I did answer your question about being insured on the Wednesday Open Thread, if you didn't see it.

    Parent

    My Sister-In-Law... (5.00 / 4) (#93)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:39:20 PM EST
    ...is an Oncology Surgeon and she once told me the biggest factor in malpractice suits is bedside demeanor.  I took that to mean that people don't trust doctors who don't seem to care, more or less.

    I find that true about myself and I think our brains correlate the belief that if they care, they are good doctors.  Who knows if it's true and it is a subjective view, but I want and trust people that I believe care about my well being.

    I realized that finding a pleasant experience is probably better for me in the long run than finding the best doctor.  One ensures I will go in when I should, and that is as important, if not more so, then the level of expertise of someone I might only see when something is wrong.

    -------------------
    I did not see the response.  Thank You.

    Now, given our cancer history and having kids, we are appreciative of the potential of catastrophic medical bills, and hope that our med ins would be helpful in that case. My wife, especially, feels more comfortable, and that it good enough reason for me.

    Now, how ever many million it is, have that same feeling your family has in regards to catastrophic bills and comfortably, who did not before.  

    And while the question isn't related to the discussion, the point is, if health care is important and provides comfort to your family, why would it not for the millions of others who signed up via ACA ?

    Which to me, answers the question you asked regarding how it improved the lives of the 10-16 million folks.  ACA is not providing care or even insurance, it's connecting people to insurance companies at, arguably, reasonable prices with many consumer benefits, like not paying a premium because of past cancer issues or putting doctors behind medical decision instead of insurers.

    Two days, the question has been asked about what parts of the law people take exception to.  One answer was how it was implemented, and the other about some clinic closing that wasn't tied to the law in any meaningful way.

    If I asked what is wrong with Obama, I would get a 50 answers by day end, but not one for ACA.  Not saying they don't exist, I can think of a couple, but I am not hand feeding the people who keep posting how god awful it is.  But with all the discussions here about how bad it sucks, I can't even get one answer in two days and in two separate posts.  

    I really am curious, because it would seem that something so widely despised, might contain something I did not know about, because to me, while not the best solution, does some pretty damn good things and has given millions of families the comfort your family, myself, and lot of other folks, already had.  

    How can that be a bad thing ?

    Parent

    I mentioned this a few days ago, I am not (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by vml68 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 01:59:24 PM EST
    a fan of the 'Cadillac Tax' part of the ACA.

    All these years, we have had the choice of various plans ranging from high deductible plans to everything covered except for the $20 copay plan, offered through my spouses employer.
    We always opted for the everything covered plan. Not a wise use of our dollars for the first 6 years, since my husband and I never went to the doctor, even though our annual physical, my annual gyn and our twice a year dental checkup and cleaning were 100% covered under our plan). But, we liked the simplicity of not having to figure out what was owed at every visit and were willing to pay more in premiums for that option.

    Since the ACA has passed, our premiums have gone up substantially and for next year, thanks to the 'Cadillac Tax' all the plans offered have deductibles and coinsurance in addition to the copays. So, in the space of 3 years, our out of pocket costs are going from paying an annual premium of about $4500 plus the copays for doctors visits to about $12000 (premium+deductible+coinsurance) plus copays. I have not yet had a chance to check if the coverage and provider network has stayed the same.

    Ofcourse, if we do not go to the doctor then we will not have to worry about the deductible and coinsurance and our costs will only be a little higher. For some people that additional $7500 over 3 years is not going to be a hurdle but there are some for whom that will be a burden.

    So, I have mixed feelings about the ACA. I think for those of us that make a decent living, we can overlook the higher cost of our own healthcare and feel good that people who were uninsured before are now covered. We can still afford to go to the doctor should we need to.
    But, I would imagine that people on tight budgets, who now have to shell out for deductibles and coinsurance, might feel differently.

    Parent

    I Too, Generally Get the More Expensive... (none / 0) (#109)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 02:50:27 PM EST
    ...least hassle plan as my employer pays the lions share.

    But I am not understanding how this is related to you, are you saying your family pays over $27.5k, including employers portion, a year for insurance, or am I not reading this right ?

    How the Cadillac Tax works

    Rather than simply repealing the old tax structure, the Obamacare solution is an additional tax, a penalty imposed on "Cadillac" or very high cost health plans. It calls for a 40% excise tax on employer-sponsored plans spending more than $10,200 per employee (or $27,500 per family). This number includes employer and employee-paid premiums and employer contributions to Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) or Flexible Spending Accounts (FSAs). There will purportedly be some adjustment for areas where healthcare is more expensive and for employees in high-risk jobs, but the regulations have not yet been promulgated.

    The way I read it, one could negate the extra 40% by reducing their HSA contribution. which comes out pretax, so essential avoiding 40% tax to their income tax rate.  Which of course is an increase either way, but I am trying to understand it.

    But this is what I was asking for, something that people specifically don't like.

    Parent

    I am not sure what "family" constitutes (none / 0) (#142)
    by vml68 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:19:41 PM EST
    in this case. Is it 2 adults or 2 adults+kids? For 2013, our (husband and me) premium + employer's portion was a little over $21k.
    If we had a couple of kids, I am pretty sure it would have been at least $27k. Again, this was for 2013. I have no idea what it will be by 2018 when the tax kicks in.

    I believe the high rate is a combination of very generous health benefits and the fact that most of the employees are in the NYC metro area, where healthcare costs are higher.

    Parent

    you will find plenty of people's reasons as to why it's a bad thing.

    As for me, like I said innumerable times on the previous thread, I'd like to see a feedback loop between  the 10-16M and the gvt such that the results of the legislation are studied for ways to, if necessary, improve it.

    The legislation certainly isn't going to go away, imo.

    Parent

    How about a poll to consider (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 01:29:33 PM EST
    as you contemplate the relative happiness/unhappiness with the ACA:

    As the second enrollment period for purchasing private health insurance under the Affordable Care Act opens tomorrow, it's a good time to look at how current enrollees feel about their insurance--you know, after all the yelling and screaming about it have subsided. According to Gallup, they're at least as happy as people who already had health insurance:

       Over seven in 10 Americans who bought new health insurance policies through the government exchanges earlier this year rate the quality of their healthcare and their healthcare coverage as "excellent" or "good." These positive evaluations are generally similar to the reviews that all insured Americans give to their health insurance.

    There is one difference between Obamacare enrollees and everybody else, though:

       In addition to newly insured Americans rating their coverage and the quality of their healthcare positively, they are more satisfied than the average insured American with the cost of their health coverage. Three in four of the newly insured say they are satisfied with this aspect of their healthcare experience, compared with 61% among the general population of those with insurance. To some degree, this could reflect the fact that many who get insurance through the exchanges receive government subsidies to help reduce the overall cost of their health insurance.

    Not usually a big fan of polls, but it seemed like it should at least be part of this discussion.

    Parent

    Are you sure that 70% of (none / 0) (#113)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 03:21:34 PM EST
    the people who got coverage actually received some treatment?? Age will play a factor but if the demographic is not "old people" then I doubt 7 out of ten did.

    Parent
    I Would Expect... (none / 0) (#119)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 03:51:02 PM EST
    ...people who didn't have insurance before to be well above the average.

    Parent
    I don't know if you can assume that (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by jbindc on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:20:26 PM EST
    People who never had insurance before may have actually gone to a doctor with their new-found insurance, but I bet many of them may have gotten surprised by co-pays, and the bills they got afterward when they haven't met the deductible.

    I would expect the people who would be the most pleased would be people who had previously had insurance before and a) didn't really use it after getting it, or b) had really bad insurance before and now were getting a much cheaper plan.

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#140)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:18:41 PM EST
    you, Scott and I should remember how assume is spelled.

    ;-)

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#141)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:18:41 PM EST
    you, Scott and I should remember how assume is spelled.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Yes, it is the practice of medicine (none / 0) (#125)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:29:46 PM EST
    not the science of medicine... And too many doctors forget that.

    And FWIW I have found most female doctors much better than most males. They listen and seem interested.

    So see if you can find a female as your PCP and take those physicals. Tons of stuff can be detected early, just by looking at the blood work.

    Parent

    You made a good choice. (none / 0) (#87)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:04:21 PM EST
    I did the same thing a few years back. Actually I was "fired" by the medical factory I was going to. I was planning to fire them anyway at the beginning of the new year, they just move it up a couple of months. After three years, every time I went, I was treated like it my first visit. No one knew who you were, doctors were changed out like McDonald's. Getting appointments for a pain. I'm sick today, not next week. The staff was rude. I switched to a single doctor office, associated with a different local hospital. Like night and day. Easy to appts., they knew my name when I walked in (like Cheers!). The staff and doctor are pleasant to deal with and it's the same doc every time. The office is too fancy and not modern, but definitely worth the change.

    Parent
    Ha. "Fired" is exactly the word I used (1.00 / 1) (#96)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:52:51 PM EST
    when I told my wife what happened.

    Parent
    Man... (none / 0) (#98)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:56:28 PM EST
    I wish that I could fire some of our customers.

    If my livelihood didn't indirectly depend on them I'd have told the rottenest apples to hit the bricks years ago!

    Parent

    And for those who went through the exchange (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by jbindc on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 11:43:27 AM EST
    Some question to keep in mind as open enrollment starts tomorrow.

    This is the most important:

    2. Will existing customers shop around?

    The biggest potential problem for Obamacare's next round is a complicated one. The short version is that if people who already have coverage through Obamacare don't go back through the system and compare their options again, their costs could rise substantially.

    It's all a somewhat ironic byproduct of the law's success at promoting more competition among insurers. As new carriers come into new markets, people who automatically renew their plans for a second year could see their tax subsidies fall, on top of any premium increases their insurer is seeking. In some cases, declining subsidies could cause consumers' costs to spike even if their insurers don't raise their premiums at all. And some people won't know their costs went up until they get a bill from the IRS.

    If you already have Obamacare, the safest way to ensure that your costs stay the same is to go back through the system and compare your new options. If your income hasn't changed, you can almost certainly protect yourself from cost increases that way. But it's not clear how many people will take the extra step, and how many will simply take advantage of the automatic-renewal option. If the bulk of initial enrollees don't shop around again, the administration could head into tax season facing a group of angry consumers hit with bills they weren't anticipating.



    Parent
    Interesting question (none / 0) (#85)
    by nycstray on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 11:52:58 AM EST
    since people have been going over their insurance enrollment yearly for quite some time. . . .

    Parent
    The more times I read that excerpt, the (none / 0) (#88)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:09:46 PM EST
    more I think it's really poorly worded. Or else I just don't understand what's being said.  Could be both, I guess.

    Anyway...it's worded as if to say that somehow, it's the shopping around that's going to keep premiums stable, and I don't know if that's what was intended.  Because one can shop around and decide to stick with what they have, right?  So, it's not the comparing, it's the switching?

    Or are they saying that people won't know in advance of renewing whether their premiums are going up, so the only way to find out is to go through the process as if one was starting from scratch?

    As for the subsidies, are they saying that those are based on some kind of average, and that if new insurers are lowering the average premium, those subsidies will fall, even for those whose premiums aren't going down?

    Not your fault, but this is all about as clear as mud. Makes me glad I'm not going through an exchange, though.

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by jbindc on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:51:30 PM EST
    The wording is poor.  But honestly - how many people actually DO shop around every year for an insurance plan?  Not many, I guess, unless their premiums skyrocket so much that it's not doable to keep their current plan. Do any of you seriously look around every year with an intent to change health plans?

    I'm not going to shop around, even though I am an educated consumer and will just renew, and even though my premiums are increasing by 11%.  I don't get subsidies, so it won't matter, but I think the bottom line is that people who signed on last year, maybe for the first time, and who are receiving subsidies need to realize that if there was any change in their income this year - they got a new job, they got divorced, they get alimony, etc. - and if they did not report that change, then they could end up owing some or all of the subsidies back.  The subsides are a tax credit, after all.

    Here's a better example:

    Americans who bought plans on the Obamacare exchanges are entitled to premium assistance tax credits on a sliding scale, if they earn up to 400 percent of the federal poverty level. For 2014, the income limit tops out at $45,960 for an individual, and $94,200 for a family of four.

    In a report published in Health Affairs, researchers at UC Berkeley and UCLA calculated that in California, three out of four subsidy recipients will likely see their income change more than 10 percent year-over-year, and that will result in about a third having to make repayments. According to the researchers, for about one in 10, it could amount to a full repayment because their higher incomes will put them above the 400 percent poverty level.

    "A lot of low income people piece together two to three part-time jobs," said Tricia Brooks, senior fellow at the Georgetown University Health Policy Institute. "I think that's where it becomes particularly more challenging to calculate your income accurately. For the self-employed... it is particularly challenging to think about that."

    And then, shopping around is a pain in the neck as it is.  Adding to that is, when you DO find you need to change your plan, and you've just established relationships with medical providers, sometimes it's a great hassle to find a plan that will let you keep those providers.

    Many of these people who bought plans on the exchange probably don't have a great deal of experience with insurance and how they work, so there are going to be a lot of surprised and possibly unhappy people come tax time.


    Parent

    Some (none / 0) (#102)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 01:59:06 PM EST
    people don't even have the option of shopping around for insurance because their company only offers one plan and I wonder how many of them who do really understand what they are buying? Truly since the ACA came around I have never seen so many people so clueless as how to understand how insurance works. Apparently most of them just looked at their insurance card and co-pays and that was it. A friend of mine who was in human resource management for years said that a lot of people are used to having everything spoon fed to them by HR at a meeting. I've been in the insurance business more or less for 20 years now and so I've been left to try to explain to people how it all works.

    Parent
    It can be very confusing (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by jbindc on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 02:20:48 PM EST
    I have two degrees in HR, and I still want to pound my head when it comes to insurance.  I've been buying my own plans for about 10 years now. The plan options are a little more transparent now, and they do seem to give more definitions (or better, writing in plain language)  - for this, I applaud the ACA.  But if you've never had insurance, or, as you say, if it was always given to you by your employer, it's quite confusing.  What's a deductible?  What's the difference between my deductible and my out-of-pocket max?  Why is there a difference?  Etc.

    But I see this tax issue as something that has the potential to be a HUGE kerfluffle come April 15th. (Just a reminder - this tax issue will be for people who buy their own plans and receive subsidies).  

    Parent

    I don't shop around... (none / 0) (#134)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:52:27 PM EST
    inertia and sparing myself from boring crap usually lead me to just renew what I have. Life's short and saving even a decent chunk of change isn't necessarily worth it if it requires a lot of "work."

      This year though,  I received a notice from my local BC/BS that my policy is not renewable because it is not ACA compliant (unhelpfully with no details as to what about it is not compliant or  whether BC/BS is offering a compliant policy and if so what it might cost.

      My policy expires with the calendar year so I'll be in the market now (not tomorrow but soon)

    Parent

    My guess is (none / 0) (#138)
    by jbindc on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:15:53 PM EST
    It wasn't compliant last year, but you got a year's reprieve after all the problems with the website rollout.

    You probably have an extremely high deductible and  / or do not have maternity coverage on your existing plan.

    Parent

    Elderly seniors and children that care for them (none / 0) (#90)
    by vicndabx on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:21:24 PM EST
    do this yearly with prescription drug coverage. They seem to do just fine.

    Parent
    Yes, we do slog our way through Part D (5.00 / 4) (#152)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:12:08 PM EST
    plans every year, searching for a plan we can afford that will still cover our drugs at a price we can afford. And it is a f@cking pain in the a$$.

    Among the tricks insurance companies sprang on Part D consumers last year, my favorite was moving many generic drugs from Tier I (the least expensive, as we have been repeatedly told generics should be) to Tier III ( only Tier IV is more costly.) Insurance companies were laughing all the way to the bank.

    Parent

    Do you really want to tell us about Obamacare?? (2.67 / 3) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 08:05:15 PM EST
    RICHLAND, Ga. -- Stewart-Webster Hospital had only 25 beds when it still treated patients. The rural hospital served this small town of 1,400 residents and those in the surrounding farms and crossroads for more than six decades.

    But since the hospital closed in the spring of last year, many of those in need have to travel up to 40 miles to other hospitals. That's roughly the same distance it takes to get from Times Square to Greenwich, Conn., or from the White House to Baltimore, or from downtown San Francisco to San Jose.

    Those trips would be unthinkable for city residents, but it's becoming a common way of life for many rural residents in this state, and across the nation........

    The Affordable Care Act was designed to improve access to health care for all American.....

    Hospital officials contend that the law's penalties for having to re-admit patients soon after they're released are impossible to avoid and create a crushing burden.

    "The stand-alone, community hospital is going the way of the dinosaur," says Angela Mattie, chairwoman of the health care management and organizational leadership department at Connecticut's Quinnipiac University, known for its public opinion surveys on issues including public health.

    Low Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements hurt these hospitals more than others because it's how most of their patients are insured, if they are at all.

    Link

    And you might ask the good citizens of Brownsville, TN who lost their hospital and now must be treated/transported either 40 miles to Jackson, TN or 50 miles to Memphis...


    Parent

    According to your link (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 08:36:15 PM EST
    rural hospitals like Stewart-Webster "treat some of the sickest and poorest patients." Steward-Webster operated in Richland,GA. GA lets see......

    Georgia's refusal to expand Medicaid will leave $33.7 billion in federal cash on the table

    The U.S. Supreme Court's 2012 ruling also had an unintended consequence that negatively affects hospitals (especially for safety-net institutions such as Grady Memorial Hospital). Whenever an uninsured patient receives treatment, hospitals get partially reimbursed with Disproportionate Share Hospital - or "DSH" - payments from the feds to cover part of their costs. But "DSH" payments will be slashed since Medicaid expansion would've provided more people with health insurance, making the reimbursements less necessary.

    Because of that policy gap, hospitals in those two-dozen states are expected to lose a combined $167.8 billion in Medicaid and Medicare reimbursements. Georgia hospitals are likely to lose approximately $12.8 billion in reimbursements - provided that Deal, his successor, and state lawmakers continue to reject Medicaid expansion. Florida and Texas are the only states facing bigger loses in hospital reimbursements without expanding their Medicaid programs.

    TN's refusal to expand Medicaid left $22.5 billion in federal cash on the table You might want to ask the good people in GA and TN why they would rather travel 40 or 50 miles than expand Medicaid.

    Parent

    Not really (2.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 09:34:16 PM EST
    The Medicaid dollars do not translate 100% to hospitals. Plus, the issue is that the treatment now being provided is not being paid for at a rate that covers the cost.

    It's like your company telling you must stay in downtown NYC and reimbursing you as if you were staying in Memphis.

    It isn't enough and Obamacare is the driving force.

    Hospital officials contend that the law's penalties for having to re-admit patients soon after they're released are impossible to avoid and create a crushing burden.

    "The stand-alone, community hospital is going the way of the dinosaur," says Angela Mattie, chairwoman of the health care management and organizational leadership department at Connecticut's Quinnipiac University, known for its public opinion surveys on issues including public health.

    Low Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements hurt these hospitals more than others because it's how most of their patients are insured, if they are at all.

    I have written about this before.... A friend of mine has severe COPD. He is a widower and has no one to take care of him. Last year he was admitted with pneumonia. After a day or two his O2 levels dictated that he be released, even though everyone knew it was too soon and he would have to be readmitted.

    It is a tough and complex problem. But taking the decision away from the Doctor and letting a bureaucrat say what must be done serves no one.

    As for the Medicaid expansion you won't get an argument from me. BUT, the taxpayers know that the federal money will go away in three years and the question becomes, who pays for it then... as well as the taxpayer's increasing health care costs????

    Parent

    The private insurance companies (5.00 / 7) (#25)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 09:53:14 PM EST
    in order to cut down on expenses and increase revenue have dictated the amount of time a patient could remain in the hospital for years.

    In 1996 I had surgury and continued to run a fever beyond the 24 hr hospitalization period that the insurance company allowed. The hospital deployed several techniques to get my fever down and released me the minute they got it down. Of course, it immediately shot back up when I got home and on my own.

    Long before Obamacare was implemented the insurance companies dictated the length of your hospital stay and many patients were discharged from the hospital way too early so that the hospitals would comply with insurance company mandates.  

    Parent

    This was going on (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by Zorba on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 10:32:32 PM EST
    Way before 1996.
    Over 30 years ago, when my son was born, our policy paid for two days in the hospital for a non-Caesarean birth, for mother and child.  So we were discharged on Friday.  But, because Son Zorba's bilirubin level was beginning to inch up, they said bring him back for another blood test on Saturday.
    Sure enough, his bilirubin was high enough by the next day, they admitted him to neonatal intensive care for phototherapy.
    What was the point of sending him home for one day?  His bilirubin was already climbing.  So put him under the lights, already, and maybe it wouldn't have climbed as high as it did.


    Parent
    The private insurance companies (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 08:48:31 AM EST
    may have done that. I don't doubt it in the least.

    But the question is.... Should we allow the private companies, profit driven, to set the standard for government non profit driven??

    That's a serious question and goes to the heart of the matter. Why do you defend the practice?

    And I'm not snarking. If it is wrong we should all say it is wrong no matter the politics.

    Parent

    It's not a matter of setting standards (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 08:55:00 AM EST
    it's a matter of making health care affordable, as in the Affordable Healthcare Act.  

    Parent
    You have it backwards (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by vicndabx on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:44:07 AM EST
    The Centers for Medicare Medicaid Services (CMS) sets the standard/policy.  Private insurers follw suit. In other words, the standard is set by the government already.

    Parent
    And how does Medicare calculate those (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 11:13:51 AM EST
    rates?

    This may be a little bit of an exercise in down-the-rabbit-hole, but here goes...

    Let's start here:

    Medicare pays physicians for services based on submission of a claim using one or more specific CPT codes. Each CPT code has a Relative Value Unit (RVU) assigned to it which, when
    multiplied by the conversion factor (CF) and a geographical adjustment (GPCI), creates the
    compensation level for a particular service. To understand this more fully, the calculations can be broken into three components - RVUs, the geographical adjustment and the conversion factor.

    But who comes up with these Relative Value Units?

    Well, there's this committee called the AMA/Specialty Society Relative Value Scale  Committee.  Yes, the committee is part of the AMA.

    Per Wikipedia:

    The Specialty Society Relative Value Scale Update Committee or Relative Value Update Committee, (RUC, pronounced "ruck")[1] is a private group of 31 mostly specialist physicians who have made highly influential recommendations on how to value a physician's work when computing health care prices in the United States' public health insurance program Medicare.

    [...]

    RUC was established in 1991 by the American Medical Association (AMA) and medical specialist groups.[6] The AMA sponsors RUC "both as an exercise of 'its First Amendment rights to petition the Federal Government' and for 'monitoring economic trends ... related to the CPT [Current Procedures and Terminology] development process".[7]

    RUC is highly influential because it de facto sets Medicare valuations of physician work relative value units (RVUs)[1] of Current Procedural Terminology (CPT) codes.[8] (The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) is the de jure work RVU determining body.) On average, physician work RVUs make up slightly more than half of the value in a Medicare payment.[7] Historically, CMS has accepted RUC recommendations more than 90% of the time.[9] Health economist Uwe Reinhardt characterized the CMS as slavishly accepting RUC recommendations.[1] The physician work RVU values accepted by CMS also influence private health insurance reimbursement.[7]

    Yes, it's complicated.  My brain hurts, I think.

    For those who don't regard Wikipedia as much of an authority (I chose it because I suspected it might be able to distill a lot of gobbledygook into something reasonably intelligible), here are some links to the AMA.

    The Medicare Physician Payment Schedule

    RBRVS: Resource-Based Relative Value Scale

    So, unless I am reading all of this wrong, Medicare is setting rates based on calculations done by a committee of the AMA.  Both CMS and private insurance have come to rely on the AMA's calculations as a basis for reimbursement.

    Parent

    So (none / 0) (#86)
    by vicndabx on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 11:54:22 AM EST
    now you believe me?

    😊

    Parent

    I think it was jim who was (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:17:04 PM EST
    turning all of this on its head; he probably believes in death panels, too.

    I was just trying to drill down into the process a little bit - was kind of sorry I did as it was way too wonky for me, at least with the time I have to look at it.  

    It did kind of leave me feeling that it's so inside-baseball that very few people probably really understand it, and that can create problems of its own.  It's harder to question/challenge - and I suspect one of the reasons CMS and the insurance industry defer to it is that the cost of creating and maintaining their own formula is just too high.

    Parent

    Believed (none / 0) (#91)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:27:12 PM EST
    might be a more accurate description.

    Parent
    Okay fine (none / 0) (#114)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 03:25:16 PM EST
    Then the government standards suck.

    Parent
    This is just weird to me (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by sj on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:36:54 PM EST
    But the question is.... Should we allow the private companies, profit driven, to set the standard for government non profit driven??

    That's a serious question and goes to the heart of the matter. Why do you defend the practice?

    So that kind of determination is just fine to make when profit is the motive, apparently.

    But if it's "government non-profit driven" they need to either

    A) Make no determination and be set up to called wasteful, or
    B) Apply current standard practices and be called death squads.

    Remind me again why I -- and anyone else -- even bother responding to your blather?


    Parent

    Wll, given that you always manage (1.33 / 3) (#115)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 03:31:26 PM EST
    to misunderstand I don't know why you do.

    Let's go back an read thread.

    I criticize the early release standards and are told that private companies do that.

    I respond:

    "The private insurance companies
    may have done that. I don't doubt it in the least.
    But the question is.... Should we allow the private companies, profit driven, to set the standard for government non profit driven??"

    I think it obvious that my point was that we shouldn't let them set low standards. PERIOD.

    But thanks for stopping in and leaving a bit of your personality on the door step.

    Parent

    The government and the private insurers (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:42:43 PM EST
    must follow the same standards, so unless you propose revising the process, your comment makes no sense whatsoever.

    Parent
    Think outside the box (1.00 / 1) (#143)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:21:52 PM EST
    The government does not have to follow the same standards.

    We have the ability to change laws.

    Parent

    But first we must know how things work (none / 0) (#146)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:42:24 PM EST
    before deciding what parts still need tinkering with.

    Parent
    Yes, DRG's (none / 0) (#79)
    by KeysDan on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:53:14 AM EST
    (Diagnostic-related Groups) has been employed since 1982.   Since then, they have expanded and are the basis for hospital standards of practice, initially for Medicare reimbursements and then adopted by private insurers.)

    Parent
    These hospitals were in (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 08:39:37 PM EST
    Dire situations long before Obamacare.  The article even states that expanding Medicaid would help the situation, but not completely fix it.  It also said that Alabama is next for mass closures, but I predicted that long ago.  Alabama didn't take the Medicaid expansion.  The state voted Bentley back in so it will continue to NOT take the Medicaid expansion and its rural hospitals will circle the drain until it is impossible to fix the situation without pain and suffering occurring first.  This is not the fault of Obamacare, this is the fault of Alabama state legislators.

    Parent
    You got it (2.00 / 1) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 09:39:26 PM EST
    expanding Medicaid would help the situation, but not completely fix it.

    Under the previous governor TN invented TennCare which had so much waste and fraud it collapsed.

    Parent

    I hate (5.00 / 7) (#38)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 07:10:18 AM EST
    to tell you Jim but the reason rural hospitals are closing in GA is because of Nathan Deal and his refusal to accept the Medicare expansion. We have the highest unemployment in the nation yet the people like you reelected him. So in other words the people in Georgia voted for rural hospitals closing and they like it.

    Parent
    Ga, if we are ever going to fix the problems we (1.00 / 1) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:10:14 AM EST
    must stop defending the bad stuff.

    So I repeat. If the state of GA had accepted the federal money and expanded Medicaid there is no proof that would have provided enough money to save the hospitals.

    And you went from low unemployment to high for variety of reasons. Could it be that businesses aren't locating in Atlanta because of the high crime rate?? Why have many big conventions went other places??

    Plus, the middle class see another expansion of welfare, already hugely expanded with the welfare payments called "subsidies" for Obamacare, that they must pay for in 3 years.

    People aren't stupid and they are resentful. A single payer system would put everyone in the same boat. Obama decided to not do that.

    There is no simple answers. We can look in the mirror and see some great economy under Clinton... and see a high tech boom and a low energy cost situation. Yet that bubble popped in 2000 and the economy tanked. Bush came along and even with 9/11 the economy recovered and then the housing bubble popped and a sharp spike in oil prices finished it off... Bush could have slowed the housing bubble if he had used more political clout in 2003, but he didn't because the Demos said they would fight. He could have popped the oil price speculation by reforming the laws governing the industry but he didn't.

    But when the Commodity Futures Trading Commission examined Vitol's books last month, it found that the firm was in fact more of a speculator, holding oil contracts as a profit-making investment rather than a means of lining up the actual delivery of fuel.

    WaPost

    Bush finally acted by issuing an EO in July, which the Demos also passed in Sept, which opened the continental shelf but Obama shut that down in 2/2009 and energy costs went back up and the economy has struggled.

    There is plenty of blame to go around.


    Parent

    So you (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:01:51 AM EST
    apparently don't think that more people being covered by insurance would have helped? That defies logic and reason.

    Atlanta is not the problem. It's the RURAL areas Jim. The same DEEP RED rural areas that are suffering from HIGH UE. Atlanta's UE number is lower than the state. Do you ever check facts?

    The last person who is going to go for any type of single payer Jim is Nathan Deal. You defy reason in your apologia for people who WILL NEVER support single payer. Shorter Jim: you have very low standards for Republicans but very high ones for Democrats. People who think like you are the reason no one cares what you think and why the GOP has been able to browbeat you continually. If you're going to continue to let the GOP browbeat you no one is going to have one iota of respect for you.

    Quit with the Bush apologia. The GOP had complete control of the government for SIX YEARS and you guys always want to try to blame someone else for what he did. And this is why the GOP is probably going to lose another presidential election in 2016 because most of them are like you and can't accept responsibility for the disastrous policy of the Bush Administration and not only do you not accept responsibility, you want A REPEAT of the same disastrous policy.

    Parent

    Again and again (1.00 / 1) (#144)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:31:40 PM EST
    Ga, I sometimes think you either can't read, don't read or deliberately misquote. This is what I wrote:

    "expanding Medicaid would help the situation, but not completely fix it."

    The comment about Atlanta was in response to your comment re the economy.

    I have no standards for politicians. Or political commentators. ;-)

    The control of the Senate was very slim until 2005. They lost it in 2006.

    Link

    Democrats had a huge majority for the first two years of Obama's reign.

    Yet Obama did not introduce a single paper bill.

    He didn't try.


    Parent

    The economy (5.00 / 3) (#180)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 07:41:36 AM EST
    is bad here in GA due to Nathan Deal and nothing else. The GA legislature was even going to cut out Deal and try to help the hospitals but he made it so that the legislature can do nothing about it. Deal is petty, mean, spiteful and vindictive and he enjoys seeing people suffer. And until people like you start to stand up to him he is going to continue to brow beat you. Why shouldn't he? If you won't stand up and say you're not going to take it he's going to continue to treat the people who vote for him like crap.

    It doesn't matter if the control was slim. The GOP controlled all three branches. It seems like George W. Bush got a lot of bad legislation that he wanted passed. They chose to do nothing about the healthcare situation in this country.

    Why don't you complain about the GOP not introducing single payer? They could have done it could they not? It's because you're going to continue to let them brow beat you and you're going to continue to show up to vote for them so they don't have to do anything.

    Parent

    My Conservative cousin does the same thing (5.00 / 3) (#181)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 08:11:18 AM EST
    He expects to be able to vote for crazy people and the Democrats are supposed to prevent the crazy from getting out of control.  If they don't, the Democrats failed...not him..he can't fail as a Conservative voter.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#183)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 08:49:42 AM EST
    that's pretty much the mindset.

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#191)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 11:31:21 AM EST
     
    The economy.....is bad here in GA due to Nathan Deal and nothing else.

    One man, all by himself, has control of the economy of the entire state of GA.

    WOW wow. Do you expect to be taken seriously when you write stuff like that?

    You seem to think that congress critters vote as told to so a majority of 1 can make things happen.

    Think about this. Filibuster. And you would need all of the Repubs and 9 of the Demos to vote to end the debate and bring it to the floor.... AFTER you managed to get it out of the House committee and approved by the House.

    You really think that could happen with Barney and Chuck screaming about how the evil Repubs are gonna keep poor people from buying a house??

    I have complained directly to Corker and Alexander that they should replace Obamacare with single payer. Have you asked Obama????

    Parent

    Yeah, in 2003 the Democrats (none / 0) (#57)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:24:11 AM EST
    Were a minority in the House of Representatives, an unstoppable juggernaut that the Republicans couldn't stop despite their majority in that chamber.

    Parent
    In case you don't understand, a bill must (1.00 / 2) (#121)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 03:55:34 PM EST
    come out of its relevant committee before it can receive a floor vote. I think the Repubs had a 1 member majority on the committee.

    Now, as I noted, Bush might have been able to bring it out by applying more pressure. And he might have got it through both Houses.

    But he didn't. I have no idea, and neither do you, what the push back was.

    Freddie and Fannie have/had significant influence and are huge sources of jobs.

    Unqualified home buyers were not the only ones who benefitted from Massachusetts Rep. Barney Frank's efforts to deregulate Fannie Mae throughout the 1990s.

    So did Frank's partner, a Fannie Mae executive at the forefront of the agency's push to relax lending restrictions.

    ....some are raising new questions about Frank's relationship with Herb Moses, who was Fannie's assistant director for product initiatives. .... while Frank was on the House Banking Committee, which had jurisdiction over Fannie.

    Both Frank and Moses assured the Wall Street Journal in 1992 that they took pains to avoid any conflicts of interest. Critics, however, remain skeptical.

    "It's absolutely a conflict," said Dan Gainor, vice president of the Business & Media Institute. "He was voting on Fannie Mae at a time when he was involved with a Fannie Mae executive. How is that not germane?

    Link

    So Bush didn't. And McCain didn't succeed in 2005...

    But isn't the question this??

    If Barney and the Demos had not have gotten in a
    snit fit then the reform would have happened.

    So doesn't that make them at least partly responsible?


    Parent

    You've certainly devoured a lot (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by jondee on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:15:42 PM EST
    of bandwidth over a period of years exclusively devoted to proving a particular faction was "at least partly responsible"..

    Isn't the question this????

    By attempting to deflect attention away from the big picture and all responsible parties, isn't your narrow, partisan, talk radio-level analysis finally just so much squid ink squirted in the water?

    Symptomatic in fact, of the irresponsible, buck-passing mentality that created the problem in the first place?

    Parent

    Okay Jondee, should have known you'd (none / 0) (#127)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:36:13 PM EST
    show up claiming I was being partisan but you are never.

    Look. Bush and then McCain proposed a solution.

    The Demos opposed it.

    You can argue that the Repubs should have pushed it through, and that's fine. But you can't quantify what it would have required to do that or even if was possible.

    Parent

    Of course, I t is typical of non-partisan people (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:41:11 PM EST
    to quote from Fox News, The Washington Times, or other conservative sources whenthey discuss political issues, and to condemn the Democrats for everything wrong in this great Republic from adultery to zoonoses.

    In other words, ladies and gentlemen, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then...........

    Parent

    Tom Delay was in charge (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:33:24 PM EST
    Of the Republicans who had the majority of the seats at that time, but somehow, someway, Barney Franks was able to generate enough pushback to overcome the handicap the Democrats had of not having the majority vote in the committee and so that's why it failed.

    If you can document some sort of pushback aside from your selective quoting and citing of RW sources, that would be intersting, but all you have is allegations and nothing more.

    LOL!

    Parent

    Well, that dang (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by jondee on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:46:39 PM EST
    yankee-liberal-queer musta' used the occult and the power of Satan to be able to wield so much power over all those Repub committee members.

    Just as the Dark Forces were obviously on the side of that "over zealous" prosecutor who headed the investigation of all Delay's machinations.

    Btw, Jim's unintentionally comic posts defending Delay back then were truly something to behold. Had to be read to be believed..  

    Parent

    Gee, Jondee (none / 0) (#139)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:16:44 PM EST
    It seems that you can't stand the truth.

    And Delay is still free.

    lol

    Parent

    Okay fine (none / 0) (#129)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:41:45 PM EST
    From that well know Right Wing source the New York Times:

    The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.

    Under the plan, disclosed at a Congressional hearing today, a new agency would be created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored companies that are the two largest players in the mortgage lending industry

    snip

    ''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

    Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

    ''I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,'' Mr. Watt said.


    Link

    Parent
    Two Democrats agreeing (none / 0) (#131)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:46:25 PM EST
    And somehow stopping it up in committee when they didn't have the majority on that committee.

    Jim, I think that you should think about the wisdom of holes and digging.

    And you cite the NYT this time.  And you're sure that there aren't any threads here or at your site denouncing them for being in the bag for the Kenyan Usurper sometime in the past?

    Parent

    Well, I see that having lost the point (none / 0) (#137)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:15:17 PM EST
    you go insulting.

    Boring. So Boring.

    Parent

    No, please, you brought up the theory of (none / 0) (#145)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:40:47 PM EST
    pushback, and asked for a reference, you have a NYT article which shows another Democrat backing Rep. Franks up on this issue.  If that's your example of pushback, then that's your example.

    I leave it to others to decide which one of us to believe.

    Parent

    And what Demo stepped up and sided with Bush?? (none / 0) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:15:57 PM EST
    Bush's actions are quantified as are Franks and others.

    The party announced Frank as the keynote speaker on Sept. 11 -- three days after the U.S. government took control of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, costing taxpayers untold billions. That takeover probably could have been prevented had Frank not worked to thwart every attempt to limit the risks taken on by the two government-sponsored mortgage giants.

    For 16 years reformers in Congress have tried to improve oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and prevent the government-chartered companies from putting the housing market and the whole economy at risk. All that time, Frank was involved in efforts to block those attempts, and in the last eight years he was a leader of those efforts.

    In 2002, shortly before accounting irregularities were exposed at both companies, Frank said, "I do not regard Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as problems," The Wall Street Journal reported. After the Freddie Mac accounting scandal in 2003, Frank said, "I do not think we are facing any kind of a crisis."

    snip

    But there was a crisis, thanks in large part to Frank, Sen. Charles Schumer and others on the leash of these companies. In Congress, they made sure there was no additional oversight, no additional limit on executive behavior and compensation, and no further restraint on the growth of the companies' mortgage-backed-securities portfolios, among other changes.

    Link

    In April 2001, the Bush administration had warned Congress of problems with them, principally with the Federal National Mortgag Association ("Fannie Mae") and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation ("Freddie Mac"). They were highly leveraged, meaning as little as 1.3% to 2% decline in housing values could wipe the companies out.
    Democrats were blissfully dismissive. Sen. Chuck Schumer (D, NY) opined, "We are using the recent safety and soundness concerns as a straw man to curtail Fannie and Freddie's mission." He later said, "I think Fannie and Freddie need some changes, but I don't think they need dramatic restructuring.

    When Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae collapsed at the end of 2008, after housing values had dropped 12.8% since 2006, they were the accelerant that turned a minor economic downturn into a worldwide calamity.

    Link

    BTW - I Googled Chuck Schumer on Fannie and got 82,000 hits.

    So enough already.

    Bush and the Repubs may not have pushed as hard as they could/should have.

    But it was the Demos who fought the changes.

    Now, I've made my point. There's no need to gild the lily.


    Parent

    Sorry, but you're wrong yet again (none / 0) (#164)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:13:19 PM EST
    From the NY Review of Books:

    Johnson probably deserves much of the damning criticism the authors direct at him. But claims that Johnson's Fannie Mae caused the 2007-2008 crisis by meeting affordable lending goals that were first established and had primary effect in the 1990s are so far-fetched that they require time travel. Home ownership increased during Johnson's tenure, as did subprime lending, but the surge of risky private lending and securitization that nearly brought down the financial system did not occur until the 2000s, when Johnson was gone.

    Nor did Fannie Mae contribute as much to the subprime bubble after Johnson left as is widely thought. The market for home loans shifted away from the traditional, conservative, fixed-rate mortgages backed by Fannie Mae to riskier, subprime, adjustable-rate mortgages sold by private firms such as Countrywide and New Century. In order to meet affordable lending requirements, Fannie Mae did buy some of the subprime mortgages that private lenders made to low-income people with poor credit scores. But even Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's purchases combined were always a minority of the subprime mortgage market, and their subprime stake declined substantially as a proportion of the market after 2004.
    Moreover, much of what Fannie Mae bought was the safest portion of the mortgage-backed securities. Even when the crisis was underway, Fannie Mae's losses on subprime loans were minimal, only about 5 percent of its total losses. They were not taking the kinds of risk the private lenders were; for example, they never bought any part of the now infamous collateralized debt obligations.

    I can dig up more info, to demonstrate that you're gilding a t*rd  instead of dealing with the facts of the case, if you like.

    Parent

    Your vulgarity aside (none / 0) (#168)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 11:43:36 PM EST
    you cannot lay aside the fact that Bush tried to reform Fannie and Freddie and the Demos objected.

    The rest is history.

    Parent

    Well, not so much "history" ... (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 06:04:40 AM EST
    ... as it is science fiction.

    Parent
    And you still (none / 0) (#174)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 01:10:09 AM EST
    can't explain how this pushback happened by adding Sen Schumer into the mix.

    The rule is, three times, and you're out.  

    It's back to the showers for you.

    Parent

    It has been explained to you what is required to (none / 0) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:12:45 PM EST
    get a bill on the floor. Barney was the ranking committee member of the minority Demo house side.
    The Repubs had a small majority in the House and a  one vote majority in the Senate.

    Link

    How it is done.

    Could it have gotten to the floor?? I don't know.

    Could it have passed in the House? I don't know.

    Could it have passed in the Senate??? I don't know.

    And neither do you.

    But the facts are that the Demos opposed it.

    Parent

    Scott/Gruber (2.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 06:18:19 AM EST
    what parts of the bill do you take issue with ?

    the parts of the bill that the Obamacrats lied about and hid from the public and from the Republicans and then put in the bill after the votes for it were fraudulently counted.

    Parent

    Do tell (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 06:28:05 AM EST
    How were the votes "fraudulently counted"?

    Parent
    Slaughter Strategy (2.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 08:15:44 AM EST
    Does the term "Slaughter Strategy" ring a bell???

    Here's a refresher:

    "This week will be the last stand for Obamacare, and the trickery that Speaker Pelosi is concocting to get the 2,700-page Senate bill through the House almost defies belief.

    "It's aptly called the "Slaughter Strategy," after Rep. Louise Slaughter (D., N.Y.), who chairs the House Rules Committee.

    "Under this scheme, House members would vote on a bill of amendments to the despised Senate bill, and the Senate bill would be "deemed" to have passed if this companion bill is approved.

    "This is supposed to inoculate House members, who could say they never actually voted for the Senate bill.

    "Former Speaker Newt Gingrich has the best line: Last year, the House was passing bills without reading them. This year, they're passing bills without voting on them.

    "If you pull out your copy of the U.S. Constitution, you will find that in Article 1, Section 7, it clearly states that the House and Senate have to pass a bill before it is sent to the president to be signed into law."

    Parent

    Actually, the strategy concerns what (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 08:45:55 AM EST
    is known as a self-executing rule, and it's been in use for quite a long time.

    And golly, gee, wouldn't you know it, but Republicans have actually been known to use it themselves...who'd-a thunk it?

    Media conservatives have falsely characterized a legislative proposal reportedly being considered to finalize health care reform in the House as unprecedented, undemocratic, and unconstitutional. But the rule in question is an accepted part of House procedure, and Congress repeatedly used the rule under GOP leadership, according to a former GOP staff director of the House Rules Committee.

    Also:

       Self-executing rules began innocently enough in the 1970s as a way of making technical corrections to bills. But, as the House became more partisan in the 1980s, the majority leadership was empowered by its caucus to take all necessary steps to pass the party's bills. This included a Rules Committee that was used more creatively to devise procedures to all but guarantee policy success. The self-executing rule was one such device to make substantive changes in legislation while ensuring majority passage.

        When Republicans were in the minority, they railed against self-executing rules as being anti-deliberative because they undermined and perverted the work of committees and also prevented the House from having a separate debate and vote on the majority's preferred changes. From the 95th to 98th Congresses (1977-84), there were only eight self-executing rules making up just 1 percent of the 857 total rules granted. However, in Speaker Tip O'Neill's (D-Mass.) final term in the 99th Congress, there were 20 self-executing rules (12 percent). In Rep. Jim Wright's (D-Texas) only full term as Speaker, in the 100th Congress, there were 18 self-executing rules (17 percent). They reached a high point of 30 under Speaker Tom Foley (D-Wash.) during the final Democratic Congress, the 103rd, for 22 percent of all rules.

        When Republicans took power in 1995, they soon lost their aversion to self-executing rules and proceeded to set new records under Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.). There were 38 and 52 self-executing rules in the 104th and 105th Congresses (1995-1998), making up 25 percent and 35 percent of all rules, respectively. Under Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) there were 40, 42 and 30 self-executing rules in the 106th, 107th and 108th Congresses (22 percent, 37 percent and 22 percent, respectively). Thus far in the 109th Congress, self-executing rules make up about 16 percent of all rules.

        On April 26 [2006], the Rules Committee served up the mother of all self-executing rules for the lobby/ethics reform bill. The committee hit the trifecta with not one, not two, but three self-executing provisions in the same special rule.



    Parent
    The only problem (2.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:04:44 AM EST
    with your response is that when Pelosi executed the Slaughter Strategy, the Democrats were in the majority -- not minority.

    And it was executed because a whole lot of Democrats did not want to vote "yes" on ObamaCare because they feared the voters back home -- and rightfully so -- because a whole gaggle of them were sent packing in the next election cycle for no other reason than the Pelosi ObamaCare vote chicanery.

    Parent

    Why is that a problem? (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:02:26 AM EST
    Did you not read the excerpt?

        When Republicans took power in 1995, they soon lost their aversion to self-executing rules and proceeded to set new records under Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.). There were 38 and 52 self-executing rules in the 104th and 105th Congresses (1995-1998), making up 25 percent and 35 percent of all rules, respectively. Under Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) there were 40, 42 and 30 self-executing rules in the 106th, 107th and 108th Congresses (22 percent, 37 percent and 22 percent, respectively). Thus far in the 109th Congress, self-executing rules make up about 16 percent of all rules.

        On April 26 [2006], the Rules Committee served up the mother of all self-executing rules for the lobby/ethics reform bill. The committee hit the trifecta with not one, not two, but three self-executing provisions in the same special rule.

    The GOP's greatest use of the self-executing rule came in the years when they were in the majority.

    The ACA may have had something to do with the Dems who lost in 2010, but if you can find me 10 voters who even know what a self-executing rule is, how it is used, and the role it may or may not have played in the passage of the Act, I will buy you lunch.

    Parent

    IOKIYAR (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:08:06 AM EST
    So your claim is (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:13:46 AM EST
    But the rule in question is an accepted part of House procedure,

    that doing wrong is okay as long as it yields the results you want.

    Parent

    Quit making things up. (none / 0) (#55)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:17:31 AM EST
    Ohhhhhh, ... sorry. My bad (none / 0) (#148)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 07:33:53 PM EST
    When you said "fraudulently" ...

    ... I assumed you knew what that meant.

    Parent

    The comment IQ level at TL takes another dip (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by CoralGables on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 06:34:46 AM EST
    Until Jim retires from commenting here (none / 0) (#36)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 06:56:24 AM EST
    That number is still unchanged.

    Parent
    OK, Answer to a Question Not Asked... (none / 0) (#66)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:01:24 AM EST
    No more generalizations about procedures, that is done, what specifically do you not like about the law ?

    Parent
    Several things (5.00 / 3) (#147)
    by Slado on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 06:17:04 PM EST
    It will do nothing to reduce costs.

    It will very expensively give insurance to people who could have gotten better insurance other ways.  No need to debate how.  There are lots of ideas from Single Payer to libertarian.

    The bill was simply terribly thought through and established a new social program with little to no forethought of what would happen 10 or more years down the road.

    As for you underlying premise that if I don't like ACA I am a traitor to sick people or a hypocrite that is simply unfair.   One should be able to separate the self from good social policy.

    The main flaw with the bill was how it disrupted so much of the current system it's goal and delivered only on one promise, more coverage.

    Why?  Because nothing in life is free and in order to just support the obvious facade that it would break even or somehow save money it had to have loopholes, double counting and various accounting tricks to convince people that 2+2 now equaled 5.

    It really comes down to wether or not you believe doing something to address a problem is better then doing something that might actually help or solve the problem.

    I ask you.  It's obvious the administration and the writers of this bill were aware of how much they were saying wasn't true.  Does that not matter?  

    What kind of logic is that?  Lie to pass a bill.  Pass it to get very expensive insurance at a huge financial obligation now and going forward for the rest of us and after it "works" then claim the moral high ground.

    As for me I am the rare of rare when it comes to insurance and my disease.   In most scenarios I'd already be dead but fortunately my company offers a self insured plan that offers no limits on coverage as long as you agree to pay a very high deductible and I come from a Mediacl family that didn't take no for an answer several times and I found the one of two doctors in the world who specialized in my disease and the one surgeon in the world who would take the risk to operate on me.  Most kids with good insurance, Medicare or ACA wouldn't have made it.  I'm lucky.

    I'm glad some people now have insurance.    It shouldn't be taken away. It is and was a noble goal and democrats should have sold it honestly.  We all pay more so more people have insurance.  Instead we were told it would revolutionize or healthcare system but not disrupt the good parts, no one would lose their doctor.  It would save The Federal Government money and even lower the deficit.   None of that
    and many other promises came true.

    Now the argument seems to be cares?  What's done is done.   Lying is just good public policy as long as at least one goal is met.

    Sorry for me that just doesn't wash.  How about we fix the parts that are bad and find some other ways to fix our system.


    Parent

    Still Waiting... (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by ScottW714 on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 11:00:36 AM EST
    ...for what specific parts of the bill you do not like ?

    Someone else mentioned the Cadillac plan tax, that is specific.

    Nothing but broad generalizations like:

    The bill was simply terribly thought through and established a new social program with little to no forethought of what would happen 10 or more years down the road.

    How will it increase prices, stating that is true without saying why is nothing more than political bologna.  "Because nothing in life is free" is about the laziest kind of thinking one can do.  Guess what, that applies to just about any legislation, it doesn't make it true, nor does it specifically address any issue.

    Same garbage, you can't even specifically address the bill just broad non-sense that could be applied to nearly everything.

    If nothing is free, who exactly paid for you medical bills that most certainly outpaced your premiums and deductibles, and how is that not socialism ?  See, those lines can be applied to just about anything, and that was rhetorical.

    This is not, "what specific parts of the bill you do not like ?"

    Parent

    I more dislike it (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 11:38:14 AM EST
    for what it doesn't include:

     1. Universal Healthcare.
       Reliable estimates are lacking and different studies use different methodologies but:

    In 2007, it was estimated 45.7 million wer uninsured . Link

     This report suggests less than 1/3 of those have become covered. Link

    overall, the authors estimate that 9.3 million more people have health care coverage in March 2014, lowering the uninsured rate from 20.5 percent to 15.8 percent.

       That's improvement but a limited one.

    1. Cost controls--- I've yet to see anyone make a convincing case that the ACA will reduce the actual costs of healthcare. Even the estimates that it has contributed to slowing the growth of rate of increases have acknowledged that the stagnant economy has been a bigger factor and that costs will continue to rise substantially (adjusted for inflation) for the next decade.

    2. Fairness-- Granting more people health insurance is good, but the costs of that are and will continue to be borne almost exclusively by the middle class whether insured individually, through employer group plans or the exchanges.

    3. No progress toward transparency and  simplification of the system. It's a huge hassle for an individual or a group plan administrator to determine what available product is best suited to their particular needs (to the extent there is any choice) and no one seems even close to being able to provide a coherent "macro" analysis.

    4. In reality, the main impact of the ACA may very well prove to be a long (generational) delay in sensible reform that truly provides universal health care and meaningfully controls costs.


    Parent
    Us hedge fund guys, (none / 0) (#199)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 01:28:05 PM EST
    private equity firms, and venture capitalists really hate ACA, because it adds to our tax burdens, which is always our bottom line.  Our treasured tax loophole of "carried interest" that we have managed, at no small cost, to keep legislative hands off so as to be treated as capital gains (top tax rate of 20 percent) rather than ordinary income (subject to a top marginal tax rate of 39.6 percent) gets undermined by having to pay a 3.8 percent surcharge for ACA.

    Hopefully, all "those people" who are getting needless health insurance protection through ACA because they never get sick or injured will join us Republican oligarchs in common cause (smirk)  and demand repeal of this benefit.   Signed, Corporation S. People

    Parent

    that's peanuts, relatively speakng (none / 0) (#201)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 01:51:09 PM EST

      Estimates are that if we entirely eliminated the treatment of "carried interest" (meaning essentially when the money HF managers, etc. receive for profitable performance of the funds they managed are taxed as if they are investment income not compensation for services-- a bonus, IOW) it would result in less than 2 billion more  dollars in taxes being paid to Treasury annually.

      Do the math. If taxing the money at 39.6% rather than 20%-- approximately double the rate, only would raise less than 2 billion, then a 3.8% surcharge would raise something well south of $400 million.

       I'm not knocking the provision, but if you believe that amount serves to take much of the burden off the middle class, you are easily gulled.

    Parent

    MT, no one was prevented from (2.00 / 4) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 09:46:38 PM EST
    going to the funerals. Or filming them.

    The issue was that the anti-war people wanted to use the video of the coffins to stir up protests.

    The question then becomes.

    Is that what the dead would have wanted??

    Is that what the families wanted??

    Bush was more worried about people (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:09:38 AM EST
    Seeing the coffins on the news footage rather than any usage by anti-war advocates that might impinge on the feeling of the families of the soldiers in them.

    So, don't peddle a line of obvious bull manure  here and also expect anyone to take you seriously as well.

    Parent

    How do you know?? (2.00 / 1) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:27:27 AM EST
    The fact is that the coffins on TV would have been used by fake pacifists.

    Parent
    Or Bush couldn't take the chance (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:35:22 AM EST
    that a grieving family might've allowed the coffin of a loved one to be shown.

    And you're mind-reader enough to know that only fake pacifists would've used the footage.

    Good to know.

    Parent

    More Importantly... (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:12:20 AM EST
    ...how do you know ?

    What we do know, is they blocked the press, and that is/was disturbing.

    You a Constitution guy, it's one right before the one about guns.

    God forbid Americans see the end product of their government's policies.

    Parent

    Oh, and your nasty crack about the post office (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 05:18:30 AM EST
    in the other thread fails to take into account that they have to fund their medical coverage for 75 years in advance, unlike their private competitors, or any other government agency.

    But hey, why let ignorance stand in the way of making snippy comments about the government you swore to uphold for 10 years at one point in your life?  It hasn't stopped you in the past, has it?

    Parent

    Doesn't make any difference (2.00 / 1) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:25:13 AM EST
    They failed. And so miserably that "going postal" became a statement of extreme anger.

    And the oath is to defend the Constitution.

    There 1s a difference as we are seeing in the IRS, NSA and other groups that are getting outside the rail

    Parent

    Now, you're not even making sense (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:29:22 AM EST
    Unless going postal is the next excuse for why they have to fund their healthcare costs 75 years in advance.

    You're beginning to sound like Grover Norquest, whose stated aim was to make government small and weak enough to drown in the bathtub.

    But thanks for demonstrating what a true patriot you are.

    Parent

    It appears that the biggest problem was (2.00 / 1) (#156)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:31:25 PM EST
    terrible working conditions in a very boring job.

    And I had no idea that a patriot can't criticize a very poorly run organization.

    Parent

    Here's what somebody who wrote a book (none / 0) (#166)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:22:55 PM EST
    on the subject has to say about it:

    Put it this way: rage murders in the workplace never existed anywhere in history until Reagan came to power. Reagan made it respectable to be a mean, stupid bastard in this country. He is the patron saint of white suckers. He unleashed America's Heart of Vileness -- its penchant for hating people who didn't get rich, and worshipping people who despise them, and this is the essence of Reaganomics.

    You go beyond criticism, Jim, you demonstrate nothing but a sick, twisted contempt for people who work in the government.  

    Parent

    They failed at tasks considered impossible (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 03:47:37 PM EST
    To successfully complete.  But it doesn't matter, they failed?

    Parent
    Remember to whom (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by Zorba on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:16:58 PM EST
    you are responding, MT.  It's Jim being Jim, after all.  What did you expect?  ;-)

    Parent
    Huh?? (none / 0) (#169)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 11:50:37 PM EST
    I said nothing about their tasks.

    Parent
    I know you have never taken it (1.00 / 2) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:33:17 AM EST
    so here it is.

    "I, ___, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me."

    And I am thankful that I never had to consider that whether or not the order violated the Constitution and this was illegal.

    As I look at the next two years that question may become germane for some.

    Scary. Very scart.

    Parent

    Not For Nothing... (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:28:39 AM EST
    ...but the Nation's top legal minds, the Supreme Court, can't even agree on part of the Constitution, so how exactly are kids, like myself, suppose to even know what interpretation is accurate, if that is even possible.

    IOW, that pledge is window dressing, it's never been used to prosecute anyone or as some defense for behavior.  That is what the UCMJ is for.

    Taken verbatim and with the direction of your posts, if you were still in would you not take issue with any orders from Obama, like immigration, or what went down in Benghazi, or whatever, of course not, that isn't how the military works, and I know you know that, it's been tried and failed, many times.  You do what the people above you say, 'no' simply isn't an option, but you know that.

    No real point other than then that pledge, which for me was taken with about 100 other people, means nothing, no one makes sure you actually say the words, it's not done on a bible swearing to a deity, or anything to ensure the pledge is some lawfull decree, it nothing more than a pretty cool tradition that marks the point when you realize this is it, no going back.

    The UCMJ is what governs soldiers, not a pledge.

    Parent

    Excellent question. (2.00 / 1) (#159)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:47:59 PM EST
    Of course no one makes sure you say the words. But they do make sure you sign.

    As a hypothetical, are you saying that those Germans who followed the obviously illegal orders... illegal against humanity... have a defense when they claimed they were just following orders??

    It didn't work for them.

    And claiming lack of knowledge or understanding doesn't work as a defense.

    So what I would not do becomes a matter of my conscience with recognition what the results would be for my refusal.

    Thank goodness I can say, "Ain't my job."

    Parent

    Soldiers followed illegal orders in Iraq Jim (none / 0) (#178)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 06:30:48 AM EST
    During probably the first three years.  We just don't talk about it, address it......we just let that ride

    Parent
    Kinda different (none / 0) (#194)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 11:51:39 AM EST
    Scott and I were speaking of following orders that might/might not be illegal. I don't know what your point is.

    We just convicted soldiers for murdering civilians.

    That's about as gross violation of the ROE's that you can get.

    I would guess that there have been others.

    Fighting an asymmetrical war while trying to not harm non combatants is about as tough a deal as I can think of.

    Parent

    But They Were Prosecuted... (none / 0) (#188)
    by ScottW714 on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 11:16:51 AM EST
    ...because of a pledge that is most certainly not the one you posted.

    I wasn't trying to argue, just stating that pledge isn't going to put you hot water or get you out of it, it's nothing more than a tradition that has no bearing on US or military law.

    For example, say the someone in the military was ordered to seize a gun from an American who owned it legally and was in a case in their home, they could not argue the 2nd Amendment gives them the right to have one to your superiors, then believe that is going to give you cover for not following a direct order.

    Obviously if a superior told you to kill a baby, you could object, but not because of a pledge.

    Parent

    I Meant, Were Not... (none / 0) (#190)
    by ScottW714 on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 11:21:22 AM EST
    ...prosecuted...

    Parent
    Given that killing a baby would (none / 0) (#195)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 12:05:44 PM EST
    violate the most basic of human rights and that the Constitution is about rights.... Yes there is a connection.

    While your example is true, if the actions of the authorities were magnified, at what point would the individual soldiers back away and say, "No."

    And I am not advocating succession, as per Texas leaving the union, or anything like that.

    One of the great things about our country was that the military was a mixture of volunteers and draftees. That's why I believe in UMS. Everybody should have some skin in the game.

     

    Parent

    Yes, you wrap yourself in the flag (none / 0) (#63)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:39:22 AM EST
    pandora mention you 10 years of service like you were Admiral Nimitz,mwhichp at the same time, you characterize Obama as a "man-child".

    Right-wing cognitive dissonance for your examination, ladies and gentlemen.

    Parent

    Obama lost an election and (2.25 / 4) (#162)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:56:04 PM EST
    he pouts and acts like a child... yet he is a man..

    He is a man child.

    Parent

    Pouting is an appropriate (none / 0) (#165)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:15:17 PM EST
    Description of 50% of your posts here.

    Parent
    It wasn't "anti-war" people (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:53:02 PM EST
    It was journalists

    What a despicable comment.  It doesn't matter what an American's stance is on that war or any war, when soldiers are sent to die and do die in their name....a clear way to acknowledge that is through observance of the coffins...and it has always been thus.

    Many times in history, "our flag draped coffins" have been photographed and shown all together returning home, as our nation experienced and processed mentally and emotionally a specific event.  What BushCo did was pure manipulation of the civilian mindset.

    Parent

    Also Jim, the families deserve to (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 12:57:09 PM EST
    Be respected.  When a soldier dies in the name of, in the service of our nation....the American people as a whole are part of that experience, the loss, and many consequences that go along with that....and they deserve to be respected also!

    Fighting for and dying for this country hasn't become that privatized yet.  God forbid that day ever arrive.  It will be our lowest point.

    Parent

    MT, have you ever been to a military funeral? (1.50 / 2) (#163)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:00:19 PM EST
    I suspect you have. I have.

    The wishes of the family must, I repeat, must be followed.

    But the issue here isn't the actual funeral. It is the use of film showing the coffins as propaganda by anti-war people that I find despicable.

    Parent

    Now it goes from hypothetical (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:29:00 PM EST
    To the reall, even though fake pacifists never used coffins of soldiers for any such propaganda as you describe.

    You have a rich imagination that goes into outright fantasy.  Have you ever considered seeing a specialist about that problem?

    How do you feel about Pat Tillmsn's family releasing his written thoughts about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

    Were they despicable for what they did?

    Parent

    You continue to snipe (none / 0) (#171)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 11:56:20 PM EST
    so I will try and answer you in one and place you in my ignore list.

    You wrote:

    How do you feel about Pat Tillmsn's family releasing his written thoughts about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

    Were they despicable for what they did?

    I wrote:

    The wishes of the family must, I repeat, must be followed.

    I think that should answer your question.

    You wrote in regards to postal employee violence..

    you demonstrate nothing but a sick, twisted contempt for people who work in the government.  

    My comment was:

    It appears that the biggest problem was....terrible working conditions in a very boring job.

    That is showing contempt?? Who knew?

    You wrote:

    Pouting is an appropriate....Description of 50% of your posts here.

    Are you loosing control?

    I think so. You aren't worthy of responding because you don't want to debate, just attack.

    Good by.


    Parent

    James (none / 0) (#175)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 01:19:49 AM EST
    The nasty crack you made was in the other thread, so don't go trying to play the martyr with little il' me.  If you find my responses here unpalatable, then just let them be.  Instead you try to make it a contest of snark and fake hurt feelings, a competition that you'll always win.

    Mahalo

    Parent

    I get to decide now, not BushCo (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 06:45:57 AM EST
    If our soldier comes home in a coffin, his nation will be able to see that and experience that.

    Parent
    And I'll tell all of you something (none / 0) (#135)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 04:57:09 PM EST
    it didn't work, people didn't need to see coffins on TV when hey could read in the papers or see on TV yet another local family grieving over their loss or a veteran coming back intact or otherwise, to realize the impact this war was having on the soldiers that were sent out there.

    Parent
    I'm glad that the KKK's threatened action (none / 0) (#5)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 13, 2014 at 05:40:34 PM EST
    is not about race.

    KKK Passes Out Fliers Promising To Use Lethal Force Against Ferguson MO Protesters

    The Traditionalist American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan started distributing a flier in the St. Louis area promising to use lethal force against any protesters in Ferguson they deem to be violent. Frank Ancona, the imperial wizard of the chapter, spoke with the Riverfront Times regarding the flier and the intentions of the KKK in Ferguson as large-scale protests loom with the approaching grand jury announcement in the Darren Wilson case. Ancona not only claimed that the protesters are "terrorists," but he also said recruitment for the chapter has soared in the wake of the protests that began in August after unarmed 18-year-old Michael Brown was shot and killed by Wilson.

    All the clergy and all the people of good faith of both races trying to find common ground cannot combat these attempts to incite violence.

    New information from Brown autopsy (none / 0) (#37)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 07:04:56 AM EST
    Anderson Cooper on Brown  autopsy

    The Grand Jury asked for Dr Baden to come before it -- not the prosecutor Bob McCullough. Interesting.

    There were 7 entry wounds  as the leaked SLC autopsy notes -- not just 6 as originally thought.  

    And this 7th one to the right clavicle travelled down to the bottom of the spine, meaning that it would have been one of the last shots administered as he was falling to the ground.

    Why is that (none / 0) (#83)
    by jbindc on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 11:41:06 AM EST
    "interesting"?  It's what Grand Juries do. They get to call witnesses.  

    And I don't believe Mr. McCullough is the one actually presenting the evidence to the Grand Jury - that's what his assistants do. Do you have information that says differently?  I don't believe that County DA's don't actually do too  many cases of presenting the evidence to GJ's or conducting trials.

    Parent

    At this rate... (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:58:13 AM EST
    NYC might catch up with the times somewhere around 2057...De Blasio & Bratton say they are finally going to join the late 20th century and will stop putting cold steel on wrists over small amounts of reefer.

    But ya still gotta drag your arse to court, and still face cold steel over an ounce or lack of ID or using in public...still so very stupid, but a little less stupid than before.  At least this should put an end to the "empty your pockets/get locked up" dirty trick the NYPD has been so fond of.

    Amazing how Bratton can come off like such a d*ck even while spreading a little good news..."I am not in favor of legalization under any circumstance."  Obviously bro, obviously...

    Three Years Ago... (none / 0) (#74)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:33:57 AM EST
    ...they passed something that would give cops in Houston the option to ticket or arrest for small amounts.  About a nano second later, the police chief, said hell no.

    But they will tell they are just enforcing the laws.

    Not sure what they are actually doing, but I have a hard time believing cops would want the hassles of arrest for small amounts.  But I bet my last dollar, white folks ain't get the same treatment as everyone else.

    Parent

    For sure... (none / 0) (#77)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 10:50:07 AM EST
    the local joke is this new policy will get black and latino kids the same treatment white kids have enjoyed for decades.

    I too would think cops would welcome becoming free of this burden, from coast to coast, but I have never and will never understand the cop mentality.  The NYPD especially seems to relish racking up collars no self-respecting lawman would waste their time on.

    Parent

    Pretty soon, the state should adapt (none / 0) (#107)
    by nycstray on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 02:40:43 PM EST
    the same stance, so don't be too hard on your  boys ;) Next thing ya know, a victory parade in your city will smell quite pleasant . . .

    Parent
    Politicaly challenged (none / 0) (#150)
    by Slado on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 08:43:39 PM EST
    Students don't know basic US history

    But they know all about Brad Pitt.

    I clearly remember a year of US History and even a year of World History in HS.

    How could so many struggle with this?

    Rick Perry needs to invest invsome History books but as the interviewer says in a follow up video that this probably has more to do with our culture then our schools.

    I remember in HS watching the whole Ken Burns Civil War documentary because it was a way to increase my knowledge of US History.  But back then I didn't have 100 cable channels , email, cell phones and Twitter to fill my nights at home between classes.  Would I watch today?

    Only two years of history in HS? (none / 0) (#154)
    by Zorba on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:19:25 PM EST
    We had to have four years of history to graduate.  US and World.  Plus a semester of what was then called "Citizenship," when we studied the Constitution and such.
    If you watched the Ken Burns Civil War documentary in high school, you are about the same age as my daughter.
    You young pup.   ;-)

    Parent
    ... fours years' credits in social studies for graduation, of which history classes were only a part. When my older sister was in Pasadena High School, the only two required classes were World Civilizations in 9th grade, and American Studies in 10th. The other two classes in your junior and senior years were electives, of which U.S. History was but one of the choices.

    In my Catholic high school, U.S. History was a requirement, and the only option you had was to choose whether to take it in either your junior or your senior year. I chose the A.P. section in my senior year.

    Unfortunately and for some unfathomable reason, the powers that be decided to de-emphasize the teaching of history in our educational curriculums sometime in the late 1960s and early '70s, a few years after you graduated from high school. Personally, I think that particular decision has since proved to be a big mistake. It's not often that I agree with Slado, but I do on this issue. We've subjected two-plus generations of students to the dubious virtues of historical illiteracy.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Not only did we have both US and world history, (none / 0) (#157)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:33:39 PM EST
    as well as US Government (how our system is supposed to work), we also had to pass a test on the US Constitution and one on the Illinois Constitution in order to graduate from high school.

    Before high school I had a year of US history and a year of world history and a year of civics in 6th, 7th and 8th grades. In 8th grade we had to pass tests on the US Constitution, the Illinois Constitution, and flag etiquette.

    All these tests became mandatory during Joe McCarthy's reign of terror. Still, it was all good stuff to know.

    Parent

    I seem to remember studying history (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by nycstray on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:52:43 PM EST
    throughout school? And if it wasn't 'strictly' history, many assignments in other subjects had a history base, for instance I have reports I did on Gutenberg and Ben Franklin just to name a couple off the top of my head (yes, they were some of my earliest 'published' drawings, lol!~) from early grade school. We had civics for several semesters/years, US History and world history. In HS we had a roster of history classes we had to pick from each semester after taking some required history classes. I took Russian history when it was still the SU. I learned flag 'stuff' in Girls Scouts, school and summer camp :P And of course, I learned the rich history of the west and the great state of California.

    Parent
    Forgot to add that my high school (none / 0) (#158)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 14, 2014 at 09:35:13 PM EST
    required either Economics or International Relations in the senior year.

    Parent
    Alaska Gov. Sean Parnell, ... (none / 0) (#173)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 12:56:23 AM EST
    ... who took over upon Sarah Palin's resignation in 2009, has apparently lost his re-election bid. Alaska Democrats joined forces with independent candidate Bill Walker (a former Republican) this past summer in an unprecedented coalition effort to oust the GOP incumbent. As of this evening, it looks as though that gambit has succeeded. Walker presently leads Parnell by 4,634 votes out of more than 270,000 cast, and the latter would have to win 77% of the 9,800 ballots yet to be tallied in order to keep his seat.

    The Post still can't get it right (none / 0) (#182)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 08:43:59 AM EST
    Finally Ferguson PD releases its police dispatch 3 months later

    Here is what is interesting that the Post Dispatch gets wrong again:

    At 12:02 p.m., Wilson says, "21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."

    The final shot to Brown's head was fired at 12:02:14 per audio recordings

    His call triggered at least two officers to head his way, including one who said he was close to Wilson.... and dispatch has him arriving at 12:02:22.

    At 12:03 p.m., an eyewitness to the shooting Tweeted "I just saw someone die OMFG".

    Earlier FPD dispatches listed a 911 Call about the disturbance at the SUV at 12:01:50 -- just before Wilson's 12:02 call for backup.

    So it appears that this 12:02 call for backup from Wilson came after the altercation and shots at the  car, after Brown had started to run, and before Wilson took off after him.

    That's why it took him a few seconds before going after him. He called for backup and knew they were coming and thus had nothing to fear from an unarmed Brown.

    The story about the radio being knocked off channel in a struggle for the gun is bogus since this 12:02 call from Wilson went through and officers responded to it.

    Hopefully the members of the Grand Jury are smarter than the boneheads at the Post Dispatch.

    Also Note: (none / 0) (#184)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 08:57:14 AM EST
    In this 12:02 Call saying "21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car", Wilson fails to report that shots were fired or that an officer was assaulted or anything else about a struggle in the car.

     All he had to do was add the words: "Officer assaulted; Shots fired" -- but those words are conspicuously absent.

    There appears to be no emergency in his dispatch.

    Parent

    Updated Brown Timeline (none / 0) (#185)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 10:00:38 AM EST
    Shooting Timeline:

    12:00 Wilson leaves earlier call a half mile away.

    12:01 Wilson makes contact with the jaywalkers at Canfield.

    He pulls forward then backs up.

    12:01:50 A 911 call is posted by FPD about a disturbance at Canfield -- probably the interaction at the vehicle.

    Two shots are fired by Wilson with one hitting Brown who then turns and runs.

    12:02 Wilson calls dispatch saying: "21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car".

    Nothing in Wilson's call indicates that there had been an assault or shots fired or a struggle for a gun or that there was an emergency or a pursuit in progress.

    Wilson then exits his vehicle and chases Brown firing one shot at him while in pursuit causing Brown to stop and turn.

    12:02:14 Glide recording shows 10 shots fired in sequences of 6 then 4 over 7 seconds.

    135 feet from the vehicle Brown now lays dead on the street.

    12:02:22 2nd Ferguson PD unit arrives and a caucus of officers subsequently takes place about 10 feet north of the body.

    developing ...

    Parent

    And it is being reported that (none / 0) (#196)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 12:13:31 PM EST
    Wilson was told of the robbery before or during his initial meeting with Brown.

    Explains what started.

    Parent

    That's possible -- (none / 0) (#200)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Nov 15, 2014 at 01:44:02 PM EST
    But then why didn't he call in to dispatch at that point at 12:01 when he first ran into them if he identified them at that point as suspects?

    Instead he calls dispatch at 12:02 after shooting one and yet in the call says nothing about shots fired or an assault or wrestling match or them being the robbery suspects.

    His 12:02 call should have been made at 12:01 but wasn't and that is telling here.

    Also the police dispatch said "white shirt" but it looked more like "gray shirt" to me, and the "box of cigars" that he supposedly took was false as video tape showed that he took a fistful of packaged cigars.

    But the red baseball cap and yellow socks would be the dead giveaway.

    Parent

    To Donald (none / 0) (#203)
    by jbindc on Mon Nov 17, 2014 at 08:04:14 AM EST
    re: Gov. Sean Parnell - wonder how much influence Sarah Palin's endorsement of Walker over her own former running mate had on the election?