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Friday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 05:00:49 PM EST
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Our last open thread is full. Here's a new one, all topics welcome.

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    Friday Open Thread | 205 comments (205 topical)
    Condi Rice (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 07:21:10 PM EST
    the U.S. remains the best place in the world to be a minority.

    Comparing Nigeria and Kenya to the U.S. does not prove that the U.S. remains the best place in the world to be a minority.

    The U.S. is more unequal than most of its developed-world peers. According to data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the U.S. ranked 10th out of 31 OECD countries in income inequality based on "market incomes" -- that is, before taking into account the redistributive effects of tax policies and income-transfer programs such as Social Security and unemployment insurance. After accounting for taxes and transfers, the U.S. had the second-highest level of inequality, after Chile.

    The black-white income gap in the U.S. has persisted. The difference in median household incomes between whites and blacks has grown from about $19,000 in 1967 to roughly $27,000 in 2011 (as measured in 2012 dollars). Median black household income was 59% of median white household income in 2011, up modestly from 55% in 1967; as recently as 2007, black income was 63% of white income. link

    Blacks or African Americans (13.2%) and Hispanic or Latino (17.1%) are poorer, less educated, and in worse health than the rest of the population.

    27.2% of blacks or African Americans and 23.5% Hispanic or Latios are living at or below the poverty level.

    I anm sceptical, based on (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 09:30:53 PM EST
    extensive travel. So many people have little or no gormal schooling, cannot read, have no running (mch less clean) walter, no sanitary facilities, do very physically-demanding labor beginning as children, and live for a month on less than we spend at Starbucks in a few days. Muslims who have lived in Burma for generations are in physical danger there, can never become citizens, and are being corralled in refugee camps. The original people of Japan are treated extremely poorly. Chile also. On and on. I think Ms. Rice is correct on this issue.

    Parent
    If Ms. Rice had said that (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 09:52:44 PM EST
    minorities have it much better in the U.S. than Muslims in Burma, or minorities in Nigeria, Kenya or in any of the the places you mentioned, she would have been correct. That of course was not her statement. Her statement was

    the U.S. remains the best place in the world to be a minority.

    The world does not consist of only the U.S. and the countries that you referenced. Comparing minorities in the U.S. only to countries with the worse conditions does not prove that the U.S. remains the best place in the world to be a minority. It only proves that they have it better than people in the worst places in the world.


    Parent

    Perhaps you can give us (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 10:46:28 PM EST
    a link so that we can read the entire report?????

    Parent
    I'm not sure what link you are requesting (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 11:02:00 PM EST
    The comment you replied to does not reference a report.

    I provided a link to an article in my previous comment. It contained additional links to source data. Feel free to follow those links.

    Perhaps you can provide me with a link to a report that shows a first world country by country comparison that proves that

    the U.S. remains the best place in the world to be a minority.


    Parent
    That you did not (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 07:57:47 AM EST
      even attempt to identify a place where it is better to be a minority is instructive,

      You also simply ignored that I also offered a link describing the plight of minorities and other Western European nations.

      You also don't seem willing to acknowledge understand the reality that being a minority that is on average poorer than and subject to discrimination by the majority ethnic group in one nation, does not mean the minorities in that nation are not still better off than minorities in other countries. Another logical fallacy is that minorities in the USA are generally not as well off as whites in the USA therefore minorities in the USA cannot be better off than minorities elsewhere.

      I acknowledged that Rice's statement was a bit hyperbolic and that one might argue that there are a handful of small wealthy nations with much lower proportions of  minorities  where day to day life for those minorities might by some be considered preferable to life in USA for those minorities. That is a debatable point though and does not render Rice's belief that the USA is the best place to be a minority false.

      The fact is minorities face discrimination and suffer from the same sort of lower "scores" on indicators of well-being everywhere they exist in sizeable proportions.

      As I said in my original post on the subject, I believe we should aspire to something more than simply being better than other nations and aspire to doing as well as we could given our resources. I don't believe we are doing that, but making that point does not lead me to attempt to distort and suggest there are actually examples of countries doing better which face anything approaching our demographics. You could certainly make a good point that the USA, like all other nations, has a long way to go in improving the lot of minorities.

     

    Parent

    How about you provide a (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 08:43:46 AM EST
    country by country comparison to prove that Ms. Rice's statement is true. It is nice that you editorialize, you do it well, but how about you present some facts.

    Here are actual studies that put Rice's statement in serious doubt.

    Lets start with comparing poverty rates and saftety nets.

    U.S. poverty rates higher, safety net weaker than in peer countries

    Poverty and the earnings distribution

    One particular point of interest in international comparisons, shown in Figure A, is the ratio of earnings (wages) at the 10th percentile of the earnings distribution to earnings of the median worker. This measures how workers at the bottom fare in relation to the typical worker, with a lower number implying more inequality. As the figure shows, earnings at the 10th percentile in the United States are less than half (47.4 percent) of those of the typical worker. This is the lowest share in the figure and is far below the (unweighted) peer average of 62.0 percent.
    ...
    Despite the relatively high earnings at the top of the U.S. income scale (as illustrated in the forthcoming The State of Working America, 12th Edition), inequality in the United States is so severe that low-earning U.S. workers are actually worse off than low-earning workers in all but seven peer countries. As shown in the figure, the United States ranks 12th out of the 19 peer countries shown.
    ...
    While the overall relative poverty rate in the United States is higher than that of peer countries, the extent of child poverty is even more severe, as shown in Figure D. In 2009, the United States had the highest rate of child poverty among peer countries, at 23.1 percent--meaning that more than one in five children in the United States lived in poverty (as measured by the share of children living in households with household income below half of median household income). This level is almost five times as high as that of Iceland, which had the lowest level, at 4.7 percent, and over two times higher than the (unweighted) peer-country average of 9.8 percent.

    Resource allocation

    Among the peer countries in Figure F, the United States' tax and transfer system does the least to reduce the poverty rate. In contrast, tax and transfer programs reduced the poverty rate in France by 25.4 percentage points (from 32.6 percent to 7.2 percent post tax and transfer). France's redistributive programs lowered poverty by about 2.5 times as much as those of the United States. The (unweighted) average effect of peer countries' tax and transfer programs is a poverty-rate reduction of 17.4 percentage points--an effect nearly two times greater than that produced by such programs in the United States. link



    Parent
    Moving right along to healthcare (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 09:11:28 AM EST
    U.S. Healthcare Ranked Dead Last Compared To 10 Other Countries

    Access:
     Not surprisingly -- given the absence of universal coverage -- people in the U.S. go without needed health care because of cost more often than people do in the other countries.
    ...
    Equity:

    The U.S. ranks a clear last on measures of equity. Americans with below-average incomes were much more likely than their counterparts in other countries to report not visiting a physician when sick; not getting a recommended test, treatment, or follow-up care; or not filling a prescription or skipping doses when needed because of costs. On each of these indicators, one-third or more lower-income adults in the U.S. said they went without needed care because of costs in the past year.

    Healthy lives:
    The U.S. ranks last overall with poor scores on all three indicators of healthy lives -- mortality amenable to medical care, infant mortality, and healthy life expectancy at age 60. Overall, France, Sweden, and Switzerland rank highest on healthy lives. link

    So far the pattern does not suggest that the U.S. is best in the world in serving the needs of the poor. Minorities, as I'm sure you know, comprise the majority of the poor in the U.S,

    Parent

    Not much of a surprise (5.00 / 4) (#40)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:06:57 AM EST
    I acknowledged that Rice's statement was a bit hyperbolic and that one might argue that there are a handful of small wealthy nations with much lower proportions of  minorities  where day to day life for those minorities might by some be considered preferable to life in USA for those minorities. That is a debatable point though and does not render Rice's belief that the USA is the best place to be a minority false.

    Given that Rice's statement is an opinion, which - by definition - cannot be proven false, that's not much of a conclusion.  OTOH, Rice provided no facts to back up her opinion, so it's really not worth much.

    Parent

    I have no quarrel (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:54:39 AM EST
      with that dispassionate and valid observation.

      My initial point, if I recall, was actually merely that just because Ms. Rice has a history of which we disapprove we should not refuse to CONSIDER HER OPPINION on the merits.

      It is debatable on the merits. But, that's not what people were doing. the consensus was building that anything she says must be opposed without analysis-- because said it.

    Parent

    What "consensus"? (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:27:11 AM EST
    What "people"?  You were responding to one person - MO Blue - when you made your statements.

    More importantly, Rice offered her absolute opinion with absolutely no facts to support it.  Despite the fact that she offered no evidence, you attempted to defend criticism of her statement by:

    1.  adding qualifiers which Rice didn't, and
    2.  demanding evidence to the contrary and using your qualifiers to attempt to disqualify evidence that contradicts Rice's claims.


    Parent
    Go back to the Thursday open thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:55:46 AM EST
      where this conversation began.

      So, let me get this straight. We should criticize Rice for some combination of improper use of the absolute term "best," and failure to support her opinion with "facts" in what appears to have been merely  an interview rather than a scholarly article.

      On the other hand, we should not consider whether the facts MO Blue offers to support his opinion that the some, yet to be specifically identified by him, counties are "better" are in fact, relevant to meaningful analysis of where the USA ranks as a good or bad place for minorities to live.

      I suspect, his refusal to name a single country remotely comparable to the USA that he believes is more hospitable is tactical.  If he looked at  any number of sources describing the situation minorities face in  large industrialized nations with truly diverse populations (say places such as  China, U.K., Russia, France and Germany), he might have to agree with my rather unoriginal observation that dark skinned peoples face very similar or worse situations pretty much every place they exist in sizeable proportions.

       He's tactically limiting specific discussion to the USA, because if he asserted "life is better in country X," then the door would be opened to specific examples of the very real problems confronting minorities in Country X.

      No one, even including Rice, claimed the USA doesn't have problems. No one interested in being honest would deny similar or worse problems exist everywhere.

     

    Parent

    Buy that straw in bulk (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:26:06 PM EST
    Is the need to restate what are very simple, concise statements a comprehension problem, or just a desire to restate something into new points you'd prefer to argue against?

    So, let me get this straight. We should criticize Rice for some combination of improper use of the absolute term "best," and failure to support her opinion with "facts" in what appears to have been merely  an interview rather than a scholarly article.

    No - you can criticize her or not, as you please.  OTOH, I don't give much weight to opinions stated as absolutes and given with no evidence to support them.  I also think a defense of those statements by adding qualifers which Rice did not include is very transparent.

    YMMV.


    I suspect, his refusal to name a single country remotely comparable to the USA that he believes is more hospitable is tactical.  If he looked at  any number of sources describing the situation minorities face in  large industrialized nations with truly diverse populations (say places such as  China, U.K., Russia, France and Germany), he might have to agree with my rather unoriginal observation that dark skinned peoples face very similar or worse situations pretty much every place they exist in sizeable proportions.

    I "suspect" that Rice's statement didn't include the qualifiers that you've repeatedly inserted in an attempt to defend them.  Actually, ...

    ... I know it.

    "Suspicions" - about people's motivations or what they might conclude if they were addressing a new, straw argument compared to what Rice actually said - don't really carry much weight with me.

    YMMV.

    No one, even including Rice, claimed the USA doesn't have problems. No one interested in being honest would deny similar or worse problems exist everywhere.

    You're right on both counts.  Then again, ...

    ... that's the biggest advantage to creating your own, straw arguments.

    They're soooo much easier to defeat.

    Parent

    A very enjoyable read. Your logic is solid. (1.50 / 2) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:17:31 AM EST
    But understand that your task is hopeless. "America Bad" is a much used banner by the Left, and many here. Plus, Rice left the Demo reservation and thus attacks on anything she says/does is a requirement just as the success of Tim Swift winning the Old Confederacy state of South Carolina's senate seat was ignored by the NAACP.

    Washington (CNN) -- South Carolina's Tim Scott on Tuesday became the first African-American senator to win election in the South since Reconstruction.

    Link


    Parent

    Get out (5.00 / 4) (#143)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 07:21:01 PM EST
    of 1960 Jim. I know you can't. It's the essence of the whole GOP culture war and the whole class of GOP culture victims.

    The tea party is the one that was saying they hate this country back in 2012. They were saying it LOUD AND CLEAR. Dressing up like a bunch of freaks doesn't mean you love your country.

    And using statistics and facts to back up your argument doesn't mean you hate it. This is typical reductive lowest common denominator junk from conservatives.

    Parent

    But her opinion... (none / 0) (#104)
    by unitron on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:58:16 PM EST
    ...

    "We are not race blind. Of course, we still have racial tensions in this country. But the United States of America has made enormous progress in race relations and it is still the best place on Earth to be a minority."

    ...is somewhat testable, or falsifiable, or not, once you settle on a definition of "good" to be the basis for her "best", because we have various data which can be compared about incomes, upward mobility, opportunities, et cetera.

    As opposed to an opinion along the lines of whether The Beatles or The Rolling Stones are better.

    Not only does something like that involve intangibles such as taste, it involves further questions, such as "what is good music?", or "what makes music good or not?", and that's only if we limit the definition of which is better to just the music, and of course bands are more than just the music, or it wouldn't matter what they wore, what they looked like, what there album covers looked like, and so forth.

    Once you start dissecting an opinion like whether The Beatles or The Rolling Stones are better, it turns out that it's opinions all the way down.

    Parent

    I'm confused (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 01:03:55 PM EST
    Are you trying to say that when she said the U.S. is "the best place on Earth to be a minority" she really just meant it is a (relatively) good place to be a minority?

    Parent
    I'm saying that opinions... (none / 0) (#167)
    by unitron on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:20:04 PM EST
    ...are often unable to be proven correct or incorrect, because they're based on individual tastes (so that there's really no right or wrong), but the one she puts forward can be, at least in part, judged according to objective data if one cares to dig around and find them.

    Parent
    I already stated as much ... (none / 0) (#179)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 06:53:29 AM EST
    ... in the post you responded to.  I pointed out that an opinion can't be proven false (or true), so stating that someone didn't prove her opinion false is just silly.  But you also said this -

    But her opinion...
    ...is somewhat testable, or falsifiable, or not, once you settle on a definition of "good" to be the basis for her "best", because we have various data which can be compared about incomes, upward mobility, opportunities, et cetera.

    Of course it is, but neither Rice nor those defending her claim offered any actual evidence - or even criteria by which to judge.  More importantly, Rice didn't say "good" - she said "best", which is a far different (and more defensible) statement.

    Parent

    How likely are the poor in U.S. (none / 0) (#28)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 08:55:24 AM EST
    to move out of poverty compared to peer countries?

    Mobility

    Starting at the bottom of the earnings ladder is more of a handicap in the United States than it is in other countries.

    The causes of America's mobility problem are a topic of dispute -- starting with the debates over poverty. The United States maintains a thinner safety net than other rich countries, leaving more children vulnerable to debilitating hardships.
    ...
    In 2006 Professor Corak reviewed more than 50 studies of nine countries. He ranked Canada, Norway, Finland and Denmark as the most mobile, with the United States and Britain roughly tied at the other extreme. Sweden, Germany, and France were scattered across the middle. link


    Parent
    you might want to rerad the caveats. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 09:33:10 AM EST
      You might also want to stop and consider whether the extraordinarily strong correlation between  more homogenous populations and higher mobility is germane to our topic here.

      That survey is interesting and I think the available data is fairly presented and its limitations properly acknowledged. The survey is, however, not intended to and does not provide information with which to compare the relative  well-being of minorities.

      If any inference is to be drawn it is in fact the one that I suggested above-- small, wealthy countries with lower minority populations might tend to be the best places to be  "poor" person (of any color or ethnicity).

    Parent

    Let's look at one of the (none / 0) (#37)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 09:57:10 AM EST
    high-mobility countries. Canada, which ranks as one of the high-mobility countries, has significant ethnic diversity. It is not homogenous at all.

    Parent
    Except (none / 0) (#43)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:24:08 AM EST
     for the Anglo/Franco diversity, Canada is very homogenous compared to the USA.

      People of "non-European ancestry" are around 15% in Canada but around  30% in the USA. Most people consider a factor of 2 to be highly significant. And, only about 3% are black and less than 1% are Hispanic. Over 12% are Asian who tend on average to do better here as well.

    Parent

    Canada is more diverse than you are (none / 0) (#53)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:59:49 AM EST
    portraying. Also, you might want to add the Aboriginal percentage in your breakdown.  It would be the polite thing to do. Canada considers them an important part of their heritage.  

    Parent
    There may be imprecision (none / 0) (#66)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:29:16 AM EST
      because some people report more than one ethnicity and I did rough addition in my head, but the data I provided is from a summary of the Canadian census.

    Link

      The fact remains the USA has roughly double the proportion of non-white citizens than has Canada and that Canada's non-white population is proportionally much more Asian and much less black and hispanic.

     

    Parent

    BTW, (none / 0) (#29)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 08:59:38 AM EST
    just like Rice's belief, many people believe that the U.S. has the greatest health care in the world. They truly believe what they are saying and the actual facts do not support their belief.

    Many people in the U.S. believe that the world is 6,000 years old. They are sincere in their belief and the actual facts do not support their belief.

     

    Parent

    O.K. maybe education will that break the (none / 0) (#31)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 09:18:14 AM EST
    pattern and prove that minorities receive the best education in the world in the U.S.

    The U.S. education system is mediocre compared to the rest of the world, according to an international ranking of OECD countries.

    Socio-Economic Class Plays a Larger Role in the U.S. Than in Other Countries

    Fifteen percent of the American score variation is explained by socio-economic differences between students. Less than 10 percent of score variation in Finland, Hong Kong, Japan, and Norway is due to socio-economic differences.
    The U.S. also has a lower than average number of "resilient students," which PISA defines as "students who are among the 25 percent most socio-economically disadvantaged students but perform much better than would be predicted by their socio-economic class." On average, seven percent of students are considered resilient. Thirteen percent of of students in Korea, Hong Kong, Macao-China, Shanghai-China, Singapore, and Vietnam are "resilient."



    Parent
    Again (none / 0) (#35)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 09:45:45 AM EST
     you select data comparing ethically and racially homogenous nations to the USA.

      In all the surveys you cite, we see that relatively small countries and highly homogenous counties  such as Iceland, Denmark, Norway, etc. rank more highly than the larger and more diverse countries. This is not surprising, and I first made the observation it was likely to be true without even looking at any data.

    Parent

    ethnically (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 09:48:45 AM EST
    not ethically

    Parent
    Did Rice exclude countries ... (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:04:06 AM EST
    ... that were relatively homogenous or limit her statement to countries that had relatively large, minority populations?

    Parent
    Funny you mention that (none / 0) (#42)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:19:07 AM EST
    Rice put no qualifiers on her statement at all.

    Qualifiers have been added rather than facts to indicate (??) something or other but they definitely did not prove that Rice's statement fact based.

    Parent

    And... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:32:27 AM EST
      I, with whom you are arguing, acknowledge at the outset and I think at least twice subsequently, that her statement was a bit hyperbolic and I am the one who actually directed attention to the idea that one could reasonably argue that a small handful of wealthy countries with very low minority populations might be considered by some to be better places for minorities to live.

      At this point, I am merely suggesting that your fervor to paint the USA in the most negative light possible is being premised on invalid comparisons.

     

    Parent

    Yep - straining to support ... (none / 0) (#44)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:30:57 AM EST
    ... Rice's statement by adding qualifiers she did not include, while failing to provide any actual facts to support her claim.

    Parent
    Are you trying to suggest (none / 0) (#49)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:49:02 AM EST
     that if Rice would have said "one of the very best" we would have been spared all the drama from those who attacked her?

      If so, I doubt you are correct, because I didn't see the initial posts attacking her as focusing on improper use of the absolute instead of a strong relative term.

    Parent

    Not in the least (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:08:15 AM EST
    I'm stating that Rice didn't limit her statement to countries with a certain percentage of minorities.  She said best in the world" ... period.  Your attempt to exclude countries who have (according to you) less ethnic diversity than the U.S. is simply an attempt to support her opinion without providing any actual facts.

    As for whether you "doubt" the argument that you're making to yourself ...

    ... let me know who wins.

    Parent

    You are chery pickng information (none / 0) (#41)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:12:02 AM EST
    There are fairly large countries with diverse populations that do a better job than the U.S. on income equity, reducing poverty, providing a safety net, education, healthcare, and upward mobility.

    Again you are not providing any actual study to prove that the U.S. is the best country in the world for minorities.

    Ms. Rice did put any qualifiers on her statement. When you actually provide something to support that the U.S. is the best country in the world for minorities we can further this discussion.

    Parent

    Look (none / 0) (#46)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:39:21 AM EST
       Obviously you have some emotional hatred for Ms. Rice and some burning desire to paint the USA as negatively as possible.

      I'm not trying to change your mind. As I have said, repeatedly, I don't even entirely disagree with you. I'm the one who initially pointed to where one might find more hospitable environments for minorities, not you.

    I just think you persist in throwing out statistics that don't prove what you think they prove and explaining why they don't.

    Parent

    I have to admit that unlike you (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:15:15 AM EST
    I provided actual facts to disbute Ms. Rice's claim.

    Evidently you have no facts to offer and have chosen to build a strawman using that old standby of personal hatred." The emotional bit was also a pretty standard, shopworn tactic used to discount facts. Next time bring facts to the table and you won't have to resort to those tactics.

    Parent

    BTW, I have already acknowledged (none / 0) (#32)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 09:31:43 AM EST
    that the minorities in the U.S. are better off than people in Nigeria and Kenya which were among your examples. I also acknowledged that the minorities in the U.S. are better off then Muslims in Burma. Comparing minorities in the U.S. only to countries with the worse conditions does not prove that the U.S. remains the best place in the world to be a minority. It only proves that they have it better than people in the worst places in the world.

    Studies (which I have provided) show they are not the best in income equity, in upward mobility, in healthcare or education. Studies show that U.S. poverty rates are higher and the safety net weaker than in peer countries.

    I will be more than willing to reviw any peer review study that you present that proves that Ms. Rice's statement is true but so far all I see is that it is a "sound good, sound bite, political statement that cannot be back up with facts.

     

    Parent

    Correction (none / 0) (#34)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 09:34:25 AM EST
    I will be more than willing to review any peer review study

    Parent
    You are missing the point (none / 0) (#39)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:05:48 AM EST
      if we could magically change, for example, Denmark -- country that is about 90% Danish and another 5% or so from other northern/western European backgrounds into a place where 30% of the population was non-white, then Denmark's rankings in all these scales would almost certainly change for the worse.

      The 5% "minority" population in Denmark benefits not only from the objective aspect of the effect of low diversity correlating with higher rankings  but, likely also from a subjective aspect in that the people of the dominant ethnicity  in countries with low concentrations of minorities  likely are more tolerant because the minorities are viewed as less of a "threat" to their continued dominance  economically, socially and culturally.
    .

    Parent

    Very strange (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 07:48:58 PM EST
    Jeff Goldblum lightbulb commercial

    ??

    Mr. Angel and I were seated at a restaurant table (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Angel on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 09:09:53 PM EST
    next to him and Laura Dern back in the day.  She was all over him at dinner!  

    Parent
    Rumor has it that TODAY (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 06:45:23 AM EST
    is your birthday.

    Happy Birthday and good wishes for the commingle year.

    Parent

    Yes, vml reminded me I'm 63 today (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:46:49 AM EST
    I had totally forgotten.

    Two years and counting to 80% single payer.

    Parent

    Happy Birthday!! Hope it's wonderful. (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Angel on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 01:46:09 PM EST


    Parent
    Happy Birthday (none / 0) (#115)
    by ZtoA on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 02:14:09 PM EST
    !!!

    Parent
    Congrats, Howdy (none / 0) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 02:53:04 PM EST
    I had totally forgotten.

    That's gonna happen a lot more in the future.

    Parent

    I mean (none / 0) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:53:21 AM EST
    Thank You!

    Parent
    I understand your priority (none / 0) (#64)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:22:10 AM EST
    I definitely did the countdown and couldn't wait to turn 65. I was sick for a year and a half before I turned 65. My premiums were extremely expensive and I had more money going out on medical expenses than I had coming in. Scary.

    Parent
    Ha! Jeff Goldblum could (none / 0) (#10)
    by ZtoA on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 08:56:21 PM EST
    sell anything.

    Parent
    Legend of the Past... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by desertswine on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 08:38:28 PM EST
    dies at 93 - Manitas de Plata - Little Hands of Silver.

    Great video (none / 0) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 01:12:59 PM EST


    Parent
    Salvador Dali... (none / 0) (#149)
    by desertswine on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 07:47:01 PM EST
    was quite a "presence." Every stroke deserves a flourish.  I still remember his "If you've got it, flaunt it." commercials.  Although I can't remember what they were for.  Some airline, I think.

    Parent
    A daily dose of cute (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 10:06:47 PM EST
    Shedd Aquarium staff teaching orphaned pup `how to be an otter'

    I think sea otters and river otters are really interesting animals and cute as can be.

    Me too :) (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Nemi on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 07:29:30 AM EST
    I've been in love with otters, since the very first time I watched how they, seemingly quite relaxed and carefree, float downstream on their back, cracking open shellfish - held with their cute little 'hands' - on a stone placed on their stomach.

    Awww, simply adorable creatures. :)

    Parent

    Here is one of my favorite (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 07:49:42 AM EST
    otter videos.

    I've shared it on this site before but maybe you haven't seen it. It always makes me smile even though I've watched it several times. It is a good thing to start the morning with a smile.

    Parent

    Not fair ... (none / 0) (#71)
    by Nemi on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:34:49 AM EST
    ... as watching one video soon leads to watching many others ... and time flies by, without you really noticing.

    Just kidding. Actually I really appreciate and enjoy seeing how you can teach animals tricks purely for their own good and not for the sake of entertainment.

    That the tricks are nevertheless entertaining to watch is just an extra bonus. :)

    Parent

    Wasn't Eddie sweet (none / 0) (#72)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:45:58 AM EST
    I really like that vid.

    Parent
    Sweet? Otterly! :) (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Nemi on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:59:19 PM EST


    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:11:02 PM EST
    Ignore the facts in favor of your favorite word association game which always ends with you responding "Clinton!"

    But Beinhart IS right.  It's going to be a tough sell for any Democratic candidate ...

    ... following Obama.

    I'm telling the truth that (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:30:34 PM EST
    I think you're paranoid about voter fraud and that to draw the conclusions you do from this 8-year old story demonstrate a lack of logic and rational thinking.  If you want to report me to Jeralyn for that opinion, then go right ahead.

    I don' think it's paranoia about voter fraud, (5.00 / 4) (#111)
    by Anne on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 01:33:10 PM EST
    as much as it is fear that the "wrong" kind of people will, if they are allowed to vote at all, elect other "wrong" kinds of people - whether they are people of color, people with accents, people on the left side of the political spectrum.

    Parent
    So you're truth is that my (none / 0) (#123)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 02:50:09 PM EST
    "thought process (is) believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion."

    Words have meaning. If you are not trying to marginalize my position by claiming that I have a mental problem, why are you claiming it?????

    Again, all you are doing is making a baseless accusation based on what... My belief that non citizens living in the US should not participate in our political process?

    Really???

    You seem to worry about time a lot. Do you think that the story is no longer accurate?? Can you tell me why???

    And you haven't said why you think a non citizen living in the US should participate in our political process. Why???

    Parent

    You (5.00 / 3) (#145)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 07:38:06 PM EST
    have obviously lived in a segregated bubble your entire life. We have had immigrants to this country from the beginning. What you do not seem to understand is that almost always first generation immigrants struggle with the language. If we sent you to China tomorrow would you know the language in a few days? No, yu would not. A lot of this language difference ends in three generations. When I lived in Chicago my neighborhood had a lot of Italians and Polish that had immigrated. Grandma almost never spoke English, her kids were bilingual and the grandkids almost never spoke the language of grandma. Oh, they would know enough to ask maybe a few things but they were mostly English speaking. Even the teachers at the school commented that the kids had two languages in the home. I even see it here with some of the Hispanics. One of the kids go with mom to the meeting with the teachers and does translation. Why does this freak you out? I think it's the paranoia so many conservatives have. They think the Hispanics are talking about them all the time and conservatives are so nosy they can't stand not knowing what they are saying. And apparently most conservatives fear having to learn another language because they themselves don't think they are smart enough to do it.

    Here's the deal (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 07:40:27 PM EST
    it's easier for conservatives to scream about voter fraud than actually admit that the voters don't like them. And the area with the most evidence of fraud is absentee ballots which the GOP refuses to anything about. What a farce they are.

    The pictures... (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by unitron on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:09:26 PM EST
    ...making fun of Bush, at least the ones I saw, didn't seem to have a racial component.

    And furthermore (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:46:15 PM EST
    your solution to protecting America from all the illegal immigrants that threaten our way of life is to change our laws and the very Constitution that makes us unique in the first place.

    What was that statement from the Vietnam War, "We had to destroy the village to save it."? Think about that for a while.

    Sniping and insults deleted (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 12:33:31 AM EST
    Please stop the insults. Some have been deleted.

    The New Black Panthers nonsense (5.00 / 1) (#221)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 01:28:11 PM EST
    This:

    The focus is on Obama's failure to press charges for their activities outside a voting place in the 2008 election.

    Followed shortly thereafter by this:


    Under the 1965 Voting Rights Act, the Department of Justice (DOJ) brought a voter intimidation case against the Black Panthers

    So the problem is that Obama didn't bring voter intimidation charges against the NBP, followed immediately by an acknowledgment that they DID bring voter intimidation charges against them.

    Hahahahaha ... I guess if you argue polar opposites, you're guaranteed to be half-right!

    Well (4.00 / 3) (#151)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 07:48:45 PM EST
    then if you think spineless is so bad why are you such a fan of Obama?

    Bought myself a birthday present yesterday (4.00 / 1) (#199)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:00:47 AM EST
    this engraving of this painting by A A Jerndorff called The Israelites Crossing the Desert.  The engraving oddly called Jews in the Desert.
    So it took me a while to find any information about it.

    No idea if it's worth anything.  But I love it.

    Everyone, if able, should buy themselves (none / 0) (#201)
    by MO Blue on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:12:43 AM EST
    A birthday present. Who better to know what you want than you yourself.

    Don't know about the monetary value but any painting that brings you pleasure is worth a whole lot.

    Parent

    Ha. Exactly (5.00 / 4) (#209)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:29:05 AM EST
    i also got a Lava Lamp from my sister.  A pink Lava Lamp.

    Wtf.  I love it.

    Parent

    Well I've always heard (5.00 / 3) (#215)
    by MO Blue on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:54:36 AM EST
    That you shouldn't try and color coordinate your art with your pink lava lamp. ;o)

    Enjoy!

    Parent

    It is the only pink thing I own (none / 0) (#219)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 10:36:04 AM EST
    more of a black and red person.

    Parent
    Really beautiful (none / 0) (#203)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:14:49 AM EST
    Happy belated Bday

    Parent
    Zorba you are right (1.50 / 2) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 07:20:12 PM EST
    I was hasty when I noted I didn't believe GA when she said she needed 7 documents to renew a license she had had for a long time.

    So in preparation, I visited the link she provided and came up with:

    Name -            Qty of acceptable documents needed
    US Citozen          1
    Proof of SocSec #   1
    Proof of Address    2
    Total               4
    link

    Hmmmmmmmmmm

    ;-)

    you forgot (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 08:42:49 PM EST
    marriage license and current driver's license. So six. But you still are really unaware of what went on during the Bush Administration.

    Parent
    What I counted is what is called for on the web (2.00 / 1) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 09:50:14 PM EST
    site.

    The expiring (unexpired)driver's is part of Proof of Residences. If you don't use  it they will take when they issue your new license.

    Marriage License

    IMPORTANT NAME CHANGE INFORMATION: If you are a US Citizen and your name has legally changed from the name shown on the Primary Identification document which you plan to provide as proof of identity (ex. Birth Certificate, Passport, etc.), then you must be prepared to present additional support documents (ex. Marriage Certificate, Divorce Decree, Adoption Decree, etc.).

    So I still see 4, or 5 if you have changed your name from the name shown on the previous PID.

    Look, you have a valid point. All of these things are a PITA. Just today the casino where I play poker started scanning ID's on people coming in. No ID, no come in. And no reason given. So it's anyone's guess.

    But, the world changes. I grew up with open windows and unlocked doors and everyone watching each other's kids. Today my windows are locked and I ATD's latest wireless security system.

    Voting is a right, but along with all rights we have responsibilities. Making sure that people who shouldn't vote is part of that. After all:

    If an election can turn on a sentence, this could be the one: "You don't need papers for voting."

    On Thursday night, Francine Busby, the Democratic candidate for the 50th Congressional District, was speaking before a largely Latino crowd in Escondido when she uttered those words.

    Link

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 08:05:13 AM EST
    then once again you didn't read what was on the website. Color me surprised---not. LOL.

    Parent
    And if (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 08:15:24 AM EST
    you've been married and divorced a few times you need to have a copy of every divorce decree and and every marriage license. The lady in front of me in line was turned down because her marriage license didn't pass the muster because apparently it was only signed by a minister or something. Lots of people sent home because their papers weren't right when I was there. And then they make copies of all your papers and where does that info go? Probably to a great business selling fake identities.

    Honestly if I had a daughter I would advise her to not change her name should she get married simply due to this law.

    Parent

    Ga, look, you made a mistake (1.50 / 4) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:01:31 AM EST
    You said I. You said 7. Using the website the answer is 4. You were not changing your name on the old license. The old license is used to establish place of residence.

    Denial is unbecoming.

    lol

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 07:28:14 PM EST
    the mistake i made was saying seven instead of SIX. You apparently cannot read the website. You have to have a paper trail of YOUR ENTIRE LIFE.

    I guess you don't realize that I wasn't born with the last name I currently have and neither were a lot of other people and frankly you need to take AT LEAST FOUR additional proof of addresses because Jim they can be rejected when you get there. I had one person in front of me who took two pieces of address verification and they did not accept one of them. So they had to be turned away like a lot of others were the same day I went. I put it up on facebook so all my friends would not get there and get turned away. One of my friends took in TEN because once they look at it they say oh, we're not gonna accept this one and they can't be from six months ago either. They have to be within like the LAST 90 DAYS. It's a nightmare and if you want to continue to make excuses for all this then go ahead.

    Parent

    It should be noted that (none / 0) (#18)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:45:31 AM EST
    She was speaking in Spanish, and seems to have a reasonable explaination:

    On June 2, five days before the special congressional election, Busby was participating in a panel discussion with four other presenters who were addressing a largely Latino audience. She had been invited to explain her position in support of comprehensive immigration reform. The discussion was conducted in Spanish with some translation. During a discussion presented by a fellow panelist about ways to get involved in political action, a man from the back of the room addressed a question to Busby in Spanish. Busby said, "I didn't hear the entire question, but I understood that he wanted to help and said something about papers. I misspoke by saying he didn't need papers to vote. I meant that he didn't need papers to volunteer. This was not a discussion about my campaign." Her comments were recorded by a member of the Minutemen. "You can all help--you don't need papers to vote, and you don't need to be a registered voter to help." She made this comment in response to a question by a man who asked in Spanish, "I want to help, but I don't have papers."[9] The recording was circulated over the Internet and on radio.

    God, I'm glad that conspiracy to take over America by encouraging illegal aliens to vote never got past the first stages of planning.  What horror our Republic was spared!</s>

    Parent

    Perhaps if we insisted that our (1.50 / 2) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:57:12 AM EST
    politics be conducted in a national language, say English, she couldn't have made a "mistake."

    She said what she said and she can claim that her intent wasn't to solicit illegal voting but that was what she did.

    I also note that if you are not a citizen then you should not be participating in any way in our elections.

    And your claim that anyone who mentions voter fraud  by undocumented persons is paranoid is specious and unfounded. Your attempt to marginalize the deed by making an obviously wild claim is typical.

    Parent

    Are you (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:04:11 AM EST
      suggesting there should be a law that candidates for office should be prohibited from addressing audiences in the language they understand best?

      Are you also conflating the right to free speech with the right to vote? By that I mean advocating the idea that  one who is not qualified to vote should not be permitted to advocate or even ask questions?

     

    Parent

    No I am not suggesting (1.00 / 1) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:10:06 PM EST
    I am saying that we need an official language and all ballots should be printed in English.

    I am also saying that non-citizens should not be allowed to participate in any way in our elections.

    Diversit (All hail diversity!) has been used to divide us into small groups that are more easy to control by group "leaders."

    See the history of Europe and the Balkan countries for a better understanding.  

    Parent

    Even were that not unconstitional (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:17:09 PM EST
      do you truly believe that say, the British wife of a native born American who has lived here 15 years, and also worked, paid taxes  and raised a family (which includes say 3 minor children who were born in the USA as American citizens) should be prohibited from handing out pamphlets promoting the candidacy of her American bor next door neighbor and best friend who is running for the state legislature?

      If so, why?

    Parent

    Yes, I do (1.00 / 1) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 02:32:15 PM EST
    Not that she doesn't have my sympathy, she does.

    But the law should be applied evenly.

    Unlike what the DOJ did with the New Black Panthers.

    And where does the Constitution say that a non citizen can participate???

    Parent

    Do tell, Jim (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 02:47:24 PM EST
    But the law should be applied evenly.

    Unlike what the DOJ did with the New Black Panthers.

    How was the law "applied unevenly"?  Be as specific as you can, which I'm guessing is just the vague, winger, conspiracy talking-point you just tried.

    Parent

    The New Black Panthers? (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 02:54:58 PM EST
    All two of them?

    Parent
    And what is the number required (2.00 / 1) (#129)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 03:25:48 PM EST
    to make an illegal act illegal??

    Parent
    BTW (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 02:58:20 PM EST
    And where does the Constitution say that a non citizen can participate???


    Seriously    ?  Have you even heard of 1st Amendment?  The Righ to free speech?  I'm guessing Bridges v. Wixon or  Yick Wo v. Hopkins would be a bit of a reach.

    Parent
    So your claim is that non citizens (1.00 / 3) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 03:29:33 PM EST
    have the right to free speech as defined in the First??

    Be my guest.

    Parent

    Of COURSE they do (5.00 / 4) (#135)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 03:51:58 PM EST
    Are you seriously suggesting that the Constitution doesn't apply to non citizens, including the right to free speech?  That's just basic knowledge of the law ... no JD required.

    As for "being your guest" ... no thanks.

    Parent

    Just a reminder (none / 0) (#136)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 03:58:12 PM EST

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.



    Parent
    And what has that to do (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:26:37 PM EST
    With answering a question in the language of the speaker?

    As for English-only, you would impair or hinder the citizens who came here as non-English speaking adults, because like most people they find the acquisition of a second language hard and would be ill-served by such a policy that wasn't. In effect when they first came here.

    In California, we have election materials available in many major languages, and it hadn't been a problem here.  What your proposing is a solution that solves nothing, and discourages voter participation at worse.

     And I don't see the problem with non-citizens registering people or in forming people about elections and giving their opinions, that you think it would hinder our democratic way of life tells us more about you than you think.

    Parent

    She was giving a political speech (1.33 / 3) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 02:39:10 PM EST
    And she told him that it was okay for him vote.

    And yes I would. Learn the language. Out of many, one, etc.

    A non citizen is a non citizen. That you don't grasp that a non citizen may still have deep and conflicted ties to their native country and the harm that can cause is evident in your comments.

    Parent

    Jim, you are now over limit (5.00 / 5) (#174)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 12:40:44 AM EST
    on this topic and just inviting insults. I've deleted some but am not going to slog through all of them. Please don't be a blog clogger. We've heard your thoughts on the topic. I have no interest in hosting your anti-immigrant comments on this site. Please move on.

    Parent
    Freedom of speech, Jim (none / 0) (#59)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:11:27 AM EST
    Have you forgotten that America value, or is the political correctness of English-only policies too attractive to you?

    People who are usually for same-sex marriage, an end to the drug war, and a single-payer health plan, usually aren't English-only ignoramuses as well.  Did you ever think to wonder why that is?

    Of course, James, of course, a politician running for office would be recommending people to do illegal things because why?

    And, yes, anyone who believes that voter fraud is a significant problem in this country is probably being paranoid, especially if this is the only example you can dredge up to demonstrate what a problem that is.

    What wild claim did I make?

    And your position is that non-citizens shouldn't talk about the issues in an election, take positions on candidates, or otherwise have anything to do with the election process whatsoever, even if the results could affect their life here in America for better or for worse.

    Glad you cleared that up for me.

    Parent

    Roger Hedgecock is our home grown Rush. (none / 0) (#19)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:53:53 AM EST


    Parent
    Peter (none / 0) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 05:29:17 PM EST
    thanks for the response in the last thread.

    I was afraid you were going to say that.

    "An exchange established (none / 0) (#2)
    by KeysDan on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 06:14:11 PM EST
    by the State."   The argument is that the statute confines the provision of premium tax credits to exchanges established by states and not federal exchanges which serve residents whose states opted out to build one.   Aside from a reading of the entire law and its context, it seems that the lawsuit depends on what your definition of is is.

    The "State" capital letter and all, could be seen as being the government, either the states themselves or the federal government as proxies.  But, it took four justices to take the case, and it does not seem like any justices who see it as a nuisance case to be disposed of would be among them.  So, it is a dangerous situation; the outcome, as always, will be which side has five votes.  At least, Medicaid will not be affected--that is for those states (or States) that did not deny the program to their otherwise eligible residents.

    Parent

    I know there was another case (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 06:58:54 PM EST
    Makeing it's way through the system but it seem if the were not interested in reversing it they would have passed on taking the case.  It was decided favorably to the ACA, right?

    I guess the hopeful reading would be they just want to settle the issue.

    Parent

    Does the timing seem (none / 0) (#8)
    by KeysDan on Fri Nov 07, 2014 at 08:42:31 PM EST
    coincidental?  After Tuesday: The sixth circuit decision of Judge Jeffry Sutton; then the  Supreme Court taking this case.  The Mrs. Porter's School of Playing Nice (and keeping the Todd Akins locked up in the attic) until after the election , reminds me of George W's "campaign of compassionate conservatism, which lasted about a week and the next thing we knew was the acceptable  level of arsenic in the drinking water was increased, and that was the high point of the Bush Administration.

    Parent
    Jameis Winston Mulligan Watch, Part VI: (none / 0) (#20)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:58:55 AM EST
    TMZ reports that the Florida State QB is now being accused of point shaving, in which he's alleged to purposely tanked during the first half of the Seminoles' October 30 game at Louisville in order to help a buddy win a $5,000 bet.

    Per 18 U.S. Code § 224, point shaving is considered felony bribery and is punishable by five years in prison.

    Wonder what Coach Jimbo Fisher's got to say about this.

    Authenticity wins elections (none / 0) (#47)
    by Politalkix on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:43:19 AM EST
    link

    If Hillary Clinton wants to reverse those numbers, she's going to have to inspire people--people who, more than their Republican counterparts, are inclined toward disconnection and despair. And her gender alone won't be enough. She lost to Obama in 2008 in part because she could not overcome her penchant for ultra-cautious, hyper-sanitized, consultant-speak. Yet on the stump this year, she was as deadening as the candidates she campaigned for. As Molly Ball put it in September, "Everywhere Hillary Clinton goes, a thousand cameras follow. Then she opens her mouth, and nothing happens."

    Clinton will have to become a different candidate than she was this fall.

    The midterms should be a warning that that won't be good enough. In general, young people don't have the same passion for Hillary that they had for Obama. Neither do African Americans. Neither do many liberals. If she's going to rouse them to the polls in the same remarkable numbers that Obama did, she's going to have to take the risk of actually saying something. She's going to have to find a big issue that she truly cares about and speak about it with reckless conviction.

    The Republican against whom Hillary runs in 2016 will campaign like George W. Bush in 2000. Rhetorically, at least, he will ooze compassion. He will sand off all his party's hard edges. He will probably put a woman or minority on the ticket. He will campaign on non-threatening change, and simply by being a Republican, he will win older white voters by a vast margin.

    To reassemble the Obama coalition against such a candidate, Hillary Clinton will have to become a different candidate than she was this fall. To win, she's going to have to show there are subjects she cares about deeply enough to be willing to lose.

    Whoever the Democratic nominee is ... (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:01:04 AM EST
    ... will have to do far more than that, following a Democratic POTUS with approval ratings @ 40%.  He's right - it's going to be a helluva lot harder than running after a Great Recession with a Republican POTUS with one of the lowest approval ratings ever.

    Parent
    What will be even harder (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:19:36 AM EST
    is running after a Demo president who let the recession linger and had a failed foreign policy.

    Parent
    Yes, the Repus in Congress wouldn't (none / 0) (#68)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:30:14 AM EST
    Have approved a bigger recovery package, which was in line with Mitch McConell's failed pledge to make Obama a one-term President.

    And thanks to reminding me how hypocritical Republicans were about the stimulus:

    Rep. Bill Shuster (R-PA)Rep. Bill Shuster (R-PA) is a vocal opponent of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act who not only voted against the stimulus, but goes out of his way to mock it as "going nowhere" and doing "nothing to encourage growth." Using the "failed" stimulus as his evidence, Shuster has been claiming that the government is incapable of reforming healthcare. But while Shuster tries to gain political points by bashing the stimulus, he has been quietly claiming credit for its benefits in his district, as well as advocating for an expanded role for Recovery Act money in his community:

    • Last week, Shuster attended the groundbreaking ceremony for a sewage treatment plant for the Blairsville Municipal Authority. Republican State Senator Don White noted that the project was only possible because of the stimulus, which allowed the state Infrastructure Investment Authority (PENNVEST) to provide a $10.4 million grant and a $3 million low interest loan for construction.

    • On November 4, Shuster asked Gov. Ed Rendell (D-PA) to use some of the state's stimulus money to reopen the Scotland School for Veterans' Children. Shuster noted that using the Recovery Act money for the school would save 134 full-time jobs.

    • In July, Shuster joined 14 Pennsylvania lawmakers -- including fellow stimulus-opponents Reps. Glenn Thompson (R-PA), Charlie Dent (R-PA), Jim Gerlach (R-PA), and Todd Platts (R-PA) -- in writing a letter asking that stimulus money be used towards public universities.


    Parent
    Really? (1.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:51:05 AM EST
    Republican State Senator Don White noted that the project was only possible because of the stimulus

    The good folks of Blairsville couldn't have issued bonds and taxed themselves?? They had to have DC give them money from Grandma in NB, who is using an outhouse when it's 10 below???

    The stimulus was some $787 billion and it failed.
    The work force participation rate is at 1976 levels, a huge number of new jobs are low paying and the U3 is improved only because fewer people are looking. And the U6, the real number of who's out of work, is near 12%.

    Of course if it's Green then the pocketbook is wide open, even if the project doesn't work. Google and friends wants another grant of $500 million, to save their failed solar electric generation plant.

    After already receiving a controversial $1.6 billion construction loan from U.S. taxpayers, the wealthy investors of a California solar power plant now want a $539 million federal grant to pay off their federal loan.

    "This is an attempt by very large cash generating companies that have billions on their balance sheet to get a federal bailout, i.e. a bailout from us - the taxpayer for their pet project," said Reason Foundation VP of Research Julian Morris. "It's actually rather obscene."

    Link

    It is failing because it is producing only 25% of what was forecast because the weather hasn't cooperated. lol. Maybe they can turn it into a rotisserie and sell some of the 28,000 birds it is roasting each year.

    Parent

    Lowest unemployment rate since GWB (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:55:16 AM EST
    Crashed the economy.

    As for why the good citizens couldn't be satisfied with 18th Century sanitation methods, and whether they, like the other residents of red states, will ever quit depending on blue states to subsidize them on the Federal level, your guess is as good as mine.

    Parent

    The good people (1.00 / 1) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 02:16:02 PM EST
    didn't have to be satisfied.

    They didn't have to wait for the Feds.

    They could have done it themselves.

    The fact is they didn't. Why is of no consequence.

    The effect on Grandma is direct. She's paying for their non action.

    And it was Clinton who started the fire:

    By STEVEN A. HOLMES
    Published: September 30, 1999
    In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.

    But he didn't fool everyone:

    ''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''

    Link

    And did it ever fail!

    But Bush recognized what was happening and tried to take action.

    By STEPHEN LABATON
    Published: September 11, 2003

    The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.

    Under the plan, disclosed at a Congressional hearing today, a new agency would be created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored companies that are the two largest players in the mortgage lending industry.

    Guess who blocked it.

    ''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

    NYT

    The price of oil is what crashed the economy.

    When the Demos took control of both houses gasoline was around $2.00. Seventeen months later it was $4.50 and the economy was in the tank. In between times the Demos had blocked more drilling on public lands 5 times and the speculators, convinced that the Demos would create a shortage, made a bundle.

    Bush popped the bubble in 7/08 by opening up drilling on the continental shelf. Oil prices collapsed and by the time Obama was sworn in gasoline had dropped to around $1.81.

    So what happened next??? Obama made good on
    his promise and
    just days after taking over blocked the drilling and gasoline prices have remained high.

    Parent

    You are (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 07:46:04 PM EST
    stil engaging in Bush apologia and fantasy. In 2005 is when the housing thing came to be. The Barney Frank thing is just a cover for GOP incompetence.

    Parent
    Ga, you can't change history (none / 0) (#159)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:23:59 PM EST
    Carter started it with CRA. Clinton expanded it in 1999. Bush tried to reform it starting in 2001 and again in 2003. McCain tried again in 2005. The Feds started dropping the prime 12/11/2007 to stabilize the markets and continued dropping it to its current position on 10/29/2008.

    Prime rate history

    Time line of the meltdown.

    Parent

    No need to change history (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 07:03:18 AM EST
    ... since the CRA didn't cause the financial meltdown.  More of the "rooster caused the sun to rise", huh?

    But as in "independent", it's funny how you forgot to include Bush's changes to the CRA in 1989 1nd 1991.  I'm sure it was just an oversight.

    Parent

    Sorry, but the story of how a member of the (none / 0) (#152)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 08:06:06 PM EST
    Democrats out maneuvered the majority Republicans is certainly a fairy tale, nothing more.

    Parent
    So the wily Demos out maneuvered the (none / 0) (#158)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:09:57 PM EST
    majority Repubs in 2003 yet the Demos couldn't do so in 2009/10 with a much larger majority???

    Really?? lol

    Of course Obama didn't have Reid introduce a bill reforming drug laws, gay marriage or single payer health care.....

    McCain tried again in 2005:

    With the financial sector in turmoil today, the media and the politicians have started throwing around blame with the same recklessness as lenders threw around credit to create the problem.  Politically, the pertinent question is this: Which candidate foresaw the credit crisis and tried to do something about it?  As it turns out, John McCain did -- and partnered with three other Senate Republicans to reform the government's involvement in lending three years ago, after an attempt by the Bush administration died in Congress two years earlier.  McCain spoke forcefully on May 25, 2006, on behalf of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005

    link

    Parent

    That's a good question about how (none / 0) (#162)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:45:33 PM EST
    the Republicans were flummoxed by Barney Franks in 2003' despite having the support of the President and the majority control of the H of R, but we're able to fight tooth and nail against the Democrats when the Kenyan Ursurper was in the White House in 2009 and 2010.

    Unfortunately, you don't seem to be able to provide a sensible answer to that inquiry.

    Parent

    The point remains very simple. (none / 0) (#165)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:03:46 PM EST
    Obama did not have Reid introduce a bill for single payer health care insurance, drug reform or gay marriage.

    So the evileeeee Repubs didn't have to do a thing.

    Going back in history to the 2003 attempt by the Bush administration to rein in Freddie the issue was that they couldn't get the bill out of committee and to the floor because it was plain that Franks' influence assured he bill not passing.

    Should Bush have done more?? Using 20/20 hind sight, absolutely. But starting in 2001 he had pushed and pushed even using the Fed Reserve with no traction.

    I trust that is "sensible" enough for you.

    Parent

    You still haven't demonstrated anything except (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 07:22:45 AM EST
    Your stupid hypothetical, failed attempt at false equivalency that doesn't make sense, as is true of 99.9% of the stuff you regurgitated from Fox News and World Nut Daily.
     

    Parent
    I haven't claimed an (none / 0) (#191)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 08:39:50 AM EST
    equivalency or disputed that Reid shut off debate many many times (How democratic of him.)

    So your claim of my false is false.

    My point goes to what Obama did not do.

    The Repubs didn't have to oppose it.

    Parent

    I haven't claimed an (none / 0) (#192)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 08:39:50 AM EST
    equivalency or disputed that Reid shut off debate many many times (How democratic of him.)

    So your claim of my false is false.

    My point goes to what Obama did not do.

    The Repubs didn't have to oppose it.

    Parent

    Oh, I see you'd rather not talk about Reid (none / 0) (#205)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:18:55 AM EST
    Shutting off debate because he wasn't successful in doing so 28% of the time, so now you want to start on your imaginary reasons why Reid and Obama didn't pass librul bills that would've been to your liking.

    "It's the hit dog that barks the hardest."  


    Parent

    Bush isn't running again (none / 0) (#70)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:31:22 AM EST
    Is he?

    "LOL!"

    Parent

    Nope, Scott from WI (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:51:46 AM EST
    lol

    Parent
    The guy (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 07:47:41 PM EST
    that dropped out or was kicked out of college? Yeah, that's the ticket. He's an idiot. But being an idiot never hurt getting the GOP nomination.

    Parent
    He's won 3 elections (none / 0) (#160)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:29:49 PM EST
    while being the #1 target of the Government Employee unions...

    Parent
    He's (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 06:18:44 AM EST
    creepy and wouldn't even carry his own state in a presidential election but then you thought Rick Perry was a good choice. He's the Paul Ryan of 2016. If you remember Paul Ryan got reelected to congress but couldn't even win his own district in a presidential election but you're kinda proving my point that the GOP has no one.

    Parent
    Think so?? (none / 0) (#194)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 08:42:38 AM EST
    Are you saying that even though he carried WI 3 times with solid margins the voters in his state wouldn't vote for him?

    Wow.

    BTW - A statewide election is significantly different than a congressional district.

    Parent

    The majority of the voters in Ryan's district (5.00 / 3) (#206)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:25:39 AM EST
    preferred Obama's ticket to the one he was was running on.  Why is that so hard for you to understand?

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#62)
    by Politalkix on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:19:05 AM EST
    Al Gore did find the slope quite steep.

    Parent
    Actually, Al Gore ... (5.00 / 4) (#67)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:30:03 AM EST
    ... made the mistake of not using Bill Clinton, the POTUS who left office with the highest approval rating of any POTUS ever.

    But I understand why you'd prefer to ignore facts ...

    Parent

    So . . . (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by nycstray on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:06:43 PM EST
    Are we going to have to put up with your Hillary 'issue' for the next 2yrs? You have already become quite predictable . . .

    Parent
    Leave Hillary alone (2.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Politalkix on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:09:28 PM EST
    says the predictable one.

    Parent
    How am I predictable? (5.00 / 5) (#84)
    by nycstray on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:15:05 PM EST
    I haven't said squat about my thoughts on the subject. Nor did I say leave her alone. I just asked since you seem to have a huge agenda . . .

    BTW, who would make you happy that has a reasonable chance of winning regardless of whether HRC runs or not? Might make you look less agenda driven if you had someone to counter . . .

    Parent

    It is really funny (none / 0) (#96)
    by Politalkix on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:30:46 PM EST
    On the one hand, her supporters say that the BHO era is over and it is time to move on and let her take control.

    But they should understand that facing criticism comes with the territory of taking the spotlight.

    If her supporters are so sensitive about her name being brought up in less than adulatory references, they should re-evaluate whether they are psychologically equipped to be part of her campaign. The original article that I posted was not even critical of her, it just focused on what she had to do to win.

    Parent

    That IS really funny (5.00 / 5) (#103)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:48:34 PM EST
    Hard to tell whether it's the straw arguments or the amateur psychoanalysis that really makes it, though.

    Parent
    I see you avoided the question . . . (5.00 / 4) (#106)
    by nycstray on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 01:03:02 PM EST
    And your history speaks to your agenda . . .

    Oh, and she has not 'taken the spotlight' yet, so maybe wait until she does . . .

    And who are these "supporters" you speak of?

    Parent

    6+ years already (none / 0) (#83)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:14:13 PM EST
    What's another 2?  But it is funny how he tries to work her into any subject.

    Like some kind of bizarre Rorschach ...

    Parent

    More time on the dog sites for me :P (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by nycstray on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:17:18 PM EST
    I will say, at least the exclamation points seem to have been replaced with the underline for now . . .

    Parent
    The republicans (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 07:44:23 PM EST
    are not going to campaign like George W. Bush did in 2000. And remember that campaign couldn't even win the popular vote. Have you looked at their candidates? Bienart apparently has not.

    The Obama coalition is dead and Obama killed it off. And what good is Obama if he can't get anything done? Nobody wants a repeat of that.

    You know, people talk about Grimes campaign in KY and blame Hillary for her losing but Grimes did 13 POINTS better than Obama in Kentucky in a year that was good for the GOP.

    Parent

    The point is this. (none / 0) (#163)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:56:18 PM EST
    Hillary couldn't rescue Grimes from her association with Obama.

    Parent
    I guess (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 06:28:37 AM EST
    you've forgotten the 2008 primary. Huh? 13 points in KY? That's pretty darn good Jim.

    But here's what you don't understand. With the GOP nuts in control of both the house and the senate and after 6 disastrous years of having them in control of all three do you really think the voters are going to hand over the ENTIRE government to a bunch of evangelical doomsday preppers. You know there are Republicans that could give Hillary a run but none of the ones that the GOP base wants. It seems they want either creepy people and/or wackos who think the UN is going to be sending in the black helicopters take you away. 2 years of GOP crackpottery is going to do nothing but hurt them. And heck Jim they're coming after people like you first. Mitch is coming after you in anyway he can but yet you're going to sit there and defend him. LOL. You guys are hysterical.

    Parent

    The 2008 primary is not the issue (none / 0) (#183)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 07:20:48 AM EST
    When HRC's candidate loses by such a wide margin in Kentucky, it tells us that Kentucky is beyond HRC's reach if she runs to become the President.

    BHO never claimed that Kentucky was a state in which he could run a competitive campaign. He never even stepped foot on it to campaign during the 2008 primaries, or in any of the two general elections. That state was never in his roadmap to the White House. Yet, he won 2 general elections comfortably.

    HRC's supporters claim that she can run a competitive race in Kentucky, West Virginia, Arkansas etc but facts show otherwise. At this time I am not even sure whether HRC can beat Romney, Jeb Bush, Kasich, Scott Walker, etc in the GE. I will just give her a 50-50 chance.

    The issue in 2016 is not going to be whether HRC was more popular in Kentucky than BHO or whether BHO was more popular in Georgia in 2008 (BHO roundly defeated HRC in the Georgia primaries). None of these states can be contested competitively by any Democrat against a Republican. The more relevant question is whether HRC can win against a Republican opponent. At this time the jury is still out on this question.

     

    Parent

    So (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 07:25:46 AM EST
    if her candidate losses by 13 points less than Obama what does that say about Obama? If Grimes did 13 points better than Obama you're pretty much making the case that Obama is perfectly awful.

    Obama campaigned in GA in 2008 and didn't campaign in GA in 2012. It made exactly two points difference. Obama's problem always has been demographics and the KY vote proved that. It has nothing to do with whether he campaigned there or not.

    If HRC loses in 2016 it's going to be because of Obama mostly. You really need to accept that fact. He never created a governing majority based on issues. It was always about Obama himself and nothing else.

    Parent

    I didn't realize Hillary already had (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by Anne on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:27:18 AM EST
    the nomination...

    Which is not to say that she won't get it, but still...we're two years out, there hasn't been a single primary, and people are already blaming a possible Clinton loss on Obama.

    Mid-terms are always - or at least, frequently - a referendum on whichever party is in power, and clearly, Dems suffered this time around.  And now, with both House and Senate in the hands of a GOP majority, more state houses in the hands of GOP governors, and more seats in state legislatures and county councils switching from blue to red, it's going to be orders of magnitude harder for Dems to demonstrate that they have more and better to offer the American people.  

    If Obama takes the "let's work together" approach that has failed over and over and over again, he's going to make the battle for 2016 at all levels that much harder for Democrats.  

    In Maryland, Anthony Brown ran a negative campaign that focused on specious claims about what Hogan stood for, and offered almost nothing in the way of vision, ideas, or leadership.  In a state with a 2-to-1 Dem to GOP ratio, Brown lost.  In the counties from which Brown was expected to receive a level of support that would put him over the top?  the voters failed to turn out for Brown - they were disgusted and discouraged by the tone and tenor of his campaign.  

    I want a real primary campaign - real challengers who can push the frontrunner to offer a real Democratic choice - not someone who's barely-different-from-the-GOP.

    I'm not the only one who wants that, but the chances we're going to get it are probably slim.

    For me, the list of reasons why I would or could vote for Hillary has shrunk over the last 8 years; putting her at the top of the ticket will cement for me what I began to see in earnest with Obama: that the Democratic Party I want is d.e.a.d.

    I don't much care that some of the Obama fans are pushing back against Hillary - or whether it's "fair" or "hypocritcal" for them to do this with her, challenge her on the issues in ways they didn't challenge Obama.  The important thing is to challenge, and question.  

    You can't give her a pass because of anything that happened with Obama.


    Parent

    Speaking for myself ... (5.00 / 4) (#216)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 10:04:23 AM EST
    ... I'm not:

    1.  assuming she will be the nominee
    2.  giving her a "pass", or
    3.  blaming a possible loss on Obama.

    I'm stating what should be completely obvious to anyone but the most diehard Obama supporter.  More specifically, following an incumbent from your own party with high negatives makes getting elected much more difficult (the Dem nominee in 2016), just as following an incumbent from the other party with high negatives is much easier (Obama in 2008).  That's neither blaming a potential loss on Obama nor "giving her a pass" for what he's done.

    Parent
    Anne (none / 0) (#212)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:50:17 AM EST
    "Which is not to say that she won't get it, but still...we're two years out, there hasn't been a single primary, and people are already blaming a possible Clinton loss on Obama."

    This is the part which is mystifying to me.

    I would also like to point out that much as I have stoutly supported the President over the years on various things, I am not uncritical about everything that has happened under his watch. Here are three things where I have strong complaints

    (1) Prevention of the sharp rise in income inequality during his watch

    (2) Prosecution of banksters that caused the crash

    (3) Removal of Howard Dean

    Every election else has one or two key issues that supersede everything else. After the "shock and awe" bombing campaigns in Iraq and frenzied flagwaving during the GWB years, many people in 2008 thought that the Iraq war was the most important issue of the 2008 election cycle that superseded everything else . After things have stabilized somewhat in the ME and we have come out from the greatest depths of the great economic recession, the issue of economic inequality and concentration of wealth in the hands of the few may be the biggest issue in the 2016 election cycle. It is not clear to me why any Democratic contender vying for the nomination should be given a pass in that regard.

    Parent

    Well we have finally found an area (5.00 / 2) (#217)
    by MO Blue on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 10:33:40 AM EST
    of agreement. The only change I would make is that no candidate of either party be given a pass on the issues.

    Not sure that there will be a chance in h€ll that the primary or the general will focus on the issues but one can do their part by being knowledgeable about what the candidate says and what he/she does.

    Parent

    It should read (none / 0) (#214)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:53:31 AM EST
    (1) sharp rise in income inequality during his watch

    (2) Lack of prosecution of banksters that caused the crash


    Parent

    If one wants to focus on issues (2.00 / 1) (#189)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 08:08:50 AM EST
    and not personalities, they should opt for Liz Warren, Sherrod Brown, Bernie Sanders, etc and not HRC. With HRC and her supporters, it is always about themselves and nothing else.

    Parent
    Your comment is extremely (5.00 / 3) (#193)
    by MO Blue on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 08:40:12 AM EST
    funny coming from an Obama fanboy. If there ever was a candidate and a campaign based on personality politics,  it was The One, Obama.

    Parent
    That is your opinion (none / 0) (#200)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:11:05 AM EST
    Unlike you, I never claimed it was only about "issues" for me. Secondly, your issues are not my issues. I have repeatedly said that foreign policy was the most important issue for me. I also am not personally concerned about pocket book issues. On pocketbook issues, I did better during the GWB years compared to the Clinton years and it won't make any difference to me personally whether a Democrat or Republican administration is in power.

    I vote my values.

    I also think that you need to get out more to understand that there is more to BHO's support than personality based politics. I commented on the subject of issues only after Ga6th brought it up. It tells me a lot about you that you did not protest when she brought it up but decided to comment after my post. I am open about my support for the President, you are sly about your uncritical support for HRC and criticism about the BHO.

    Parent

    Not sly at all (5.00 / 5) (#213)
    by MO Blue on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:51:38 AM EST
    Lack of support for Obama's policies in no way indicates support for HRC. I know that is not something that you are willing to accept because it doesn't fit with your agenda but there it is. Nice try in developing a different argument though.

    I get out quite a bit thank you and you are right in that I do not limit my focus on just a single issue but on a much broader spectrum of issues. You seem rather insulated in what issue interest you. As long as something doesn't affect you, you just don't care. Maybe it is you who needs to get out more and see how the issues you could care less about effect the people in this country.

    Another value voter. Seems that there are a lot of them around.

    Parent

    Besides being irrelevant ... (none / 0) (#190)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 08:35:47 AM EST
     ... to Ga6thDem's post, do you realize how that sounds ... coming from an Obama acolyte?

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#187)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 07:45:51 AM EST
    It tells me that Kentucky as a state is as relevant for a Democrat as Idaho in 2016 when it comes to winning a general election (irrespective of whether the candidates is HRC or any body else). The demographics in Kentucky do not favor any Democrat, HRC (irrespective of what her supporters think) or otherwise.

    BHO has created a governing majority based on issues which will play well in many states that will allow a Democrat to win if he/she embrace the President and his policies. The roadmap that BHO created however does not run through Kentucky or West Virginia. For eg: environmentalism is an issue that will play well in Virginia or Colorado but not in Kentucky or West Virginia.

    Parent

    The "roadmap he created" ... (5.00 / 3) (#196)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 08:44:52 AM EST
    ... doesn't run anywhere, anymore.  It's long gone - buried under a dismal approval rating and falling popularity in the purple states.  So is the "governing majority" you credit him with creating.

    It's 2014, not 2008.

    Parent

    I don't think BHO is the devil (5.00 / 6) (#198)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 08:52:28 AM EST
    But his days of creating any sort of momentum, unity, and party power are behind him.  That part of his presidency is over unless he woke up this morning and chose to do a 180 degree switch in how he approaches social issue conflict and struggle.

    Parent
    I do not expect (none / 0) (#204)
    by Politalkix on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:17:57 AM EST
    much to change in domestic policy during the remainder of BHO's term. Changes in domestic policies will require loosening of purse strings from the Republican controlled Congress which is never going to happen.

    I will expect him to focus more on foreign policy like most Presidents do during their second term. How much the Republicans work with him on foreign policy will remain to be seen. There may be convergence on some issues just as there will be stark differences.

    Parent

    Not even close (none / 0) (#188)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 07:48:29 AM EST
    When HRC's candidate loses by such a wide margin in Kentucky, it tells us that Kentucky is beyond HRC's reach if she runs to become the President.

    Actually, it tells us that overcoming Obama's horrible approval numbers are virtually impossible, particularly in a red state.


    NKY Dem: Obama 'owns' Grimes' loss

    The race toward the end wasn't even considered competitive for many analysts. Nathan Gonzales, with the Rothenberg Political Report, wrote on Election Day that the Republicans ran a very effective campaign against her. From the start, Republicans attacked her lack of experience and tied her with Obama...

    "The president owns the loss," said Nathan Smith, a prominent Democratic donor from Fort Mitchell who held fundraisers for Grimes. "I think the president needs to do some soul searching about where his office is right now."...

    Any Democrat stood little chance going against a powerful Senator at the same time the Democratic president is so unpopular, said Stephen Voss, political science professor at the University of Kentucky.

    "That she held it as close as she did for as long as she did is darn good," Voss said.

    Weeks before the election, conservatives were cheering McConnell's strategy to tie Grimes to Obama and noted it was working.

    McConnell's strategy to tie his opponent to Obama is working, and he's hammering the point home.

    Parent

    It'll hurt them or they will somehow (none / 0) (#197)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 08:46:07 AM EST
    Swing out of the lunatic fringe.  With so much of that fringe making up the whole, not sure how that works, but if they did then Dems shift left and those are the solutions that Americans want NOW.

    Dems were voted out mostly based on what people are having to live on now, and the Democrats just couldn't seem to bring themselves to care enough to propose to do anything about that.

    But the Republican party has no solutions they are willing to apply.  So 2016 will swing wildly the other direction.

    Parent

    OPERATION LEAF (none / 0) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:04:16 AM EST
    starts today.  (Happy birthday).
    I have three ginormous maple trees among other stuff in my yard.

    I am in the middle of the big pineapple (none / 0) (#79)
    by nycstray on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:08:38 PM EST
    guava drop . . .  I think there are some leaves out there also that need my attention . . .

    So, are you going to let the pups do some leaf pile jumping?

    Parent

    No. I have a mulcher for my (none / 0) (#87)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:18:17 PM EST
    lawnmower.  Every year they make a pile of mulch about the size of a panel truck.

    Most of the leaves are in the front yard.  The dogs are in the back. Thank god.

    Parent

    Nice! No lawn so, I can't do the mulch thing (none / 0) (#97)
    by nycstray on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:32:11 PM EST
    that would be great for the garden though. I'm tossing everything into the compost pile. Supposed to be almost 80 the next 2 days, so yard time is high on my to-do list :) I may try hooking the wagon up to Rox so she can 'help' :P


    Parent
    Completely off topic (none / 0) (#88)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:20:09 PM EST
    Haven't had the opportunity to say:

    Congratulations on the Giants' WS win.

    Unfortunately you were right, your cheering for them was not the K.O.D. ;-D

    Parent

    Thanks! Good series . . . (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by nycstray on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:33:59 PM EST
    though I'm not a big fan of game 7s . . .

    Parent
    Calling all Le Carre fans! (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:30:19 AM EST
    Watched "A Most Wanted Man" on DVD and it is without doubt the best adaptation of any of his novels since the original miniseries of "Smiley's People" and "Tinker Tailor Solder Spy." (The recent "TTSP" movie was god awful.)

    Hoffman was brilliant. His suicide is a tragic loss to the world of acting.

    Agreed on the film adaptation of ... (none / 0) (#94)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:28:27 PM EST
    ... "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy." To anyone who had never read Le Carre's book, I would think that movie would've appeared just this side of incoherent. I did read it, and even then I had enough trouble tracking the story onscreen as it was.

    I have to wonder if a few key scenes vital to Le Carre's plot didn't somehow end up on the studio's cutting room floor. You really can't cram a convoluted tale like that into a two-hour running time and do it justice.

    BTW, Philip Seymour Hoffman did not commit suicide. Rather, he died of a heroin overdose, likely accidental. Regardless, I agree that it was a huge loss.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Is sexism imaginary also? (none / 0) (#99)
    by Politalkix on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:36:38 PM EST


    Alrighty then... (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by christinep on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 02:21:51 PM EST
    Running for President is never easy ... no one understands that more, in this upcoming election cycle, than Hillary Clinton. She has managed the expectation game well to date, doing deflections as needed.  Good timing will be essential.

    What will also be necessary is a unified approach and unified party.  On that score, I really expect that conditions are such now--and, experience all the way around is such--that President Obama and the economic recovery, together with the other significant seeds planted during this Administration, will be quite different in a positive direction than the present situation.  I suspect the Hillary will draw & reinforce the connections to Obama in the normal course of events while also emphasizing her individuality, what she brings to the nation & world.  That is the way it is done; let us not be short-sighted.

    My question would arise from framing the positive that she offers, so that we don't wound ourselves as a political party even as the Repubs are openly firing at her now.  It seems to me that, if we want to see a Democrat succeed in 2016, we should start with how to increase the chance for success ... and, in that regard, wounding each other with long-held grudges can never, never contribute to electing the next President.  My question: What are the specific (specific) steps, acts, measures that Hillary Clinton (or any other potential candidate) should take to build a Democratic momentum; and, when & how should that be done???  

    Parent

    Sometimes (none / 0) (#101)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:46:01 PM EST
    Sometimes not.

    The claims or racism against HC and BC (and by extension, her supporters) during the 2008 primary?

    Absolutely.


    Spineless people try to line us excuses before hand in case their candidate loses

    Those were the "spineless" people you were referring to, ... no?

    :)

    Parent

    The man who opened the Berlin Wall.. (none / 0) (#100)
    by desertswine on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:36:39 PM EST
    Harald Jaeger.  Interesting story and video from NPR,

    Lastest from Ferguson (none / 0) (#102)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 12:46:34 PM EST
    Contrary to persistent rumors, CW says that there will be no announcement of the verdict of the Brown GJ this weekend.

    I am scheduled to attend an event at the Ferguson Civic Center on Thursday. Hope everything stays calm while I'm down there.

    I definitely will not tell my daughter that I'm going. She would raise the roof.


    It's not a "pretense" (none / 0) (#112)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 01:43:24 PM EST
    On the one hand, her supporters say that the BHO era is over and it is time to move on and let her take control.

    Just calling you out on your false claims.

    Cardinal Burke demoted again (none / 0) (#114)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 02:07:18 PM EST
    Cardinal Raymond Burke,was removed by Pope Francis from another top Vatican post on Saturday.

    The removal of Burke as head of the Holy See's supreme court was widely expected in church circles.
    ...
    Last year Francis took Burke off the Vatican's powerful Congregation for Bishops, dealing with appointments of bishops worldwide.

    On Saturday he transferred Burke from the Vatican court job to the largely ceremonial post of Patron of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, a charity whose activities include hospitals and residences for the elderly around the world. link

    I wonder what other position Francis the Good has in mind for Burke if he continues to defy his Pope. Collecting alms for the poor on the streets of the Vatican might be just the position he needs.

    In case there is any doubt, I am not  a fan of the prior Archbishop of St. Louis.

    A demotion well deserved. (none / 0) (#127)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 03:09:51 PM EST
    Of course, this will only further rile Opus Dei and other conservatives such as the NYTimes' Ross Douthat.  If you read Douthat (I know, why do that), you will find that he thinks that the Pope is wrong to give Burke the boot. Actually, he was livid to the point of inciting schism.

    But, Douthat and his ilk had no such thoughts when, for example, Pope John Paul II would no longer permit the Swiss priest and distinguished professor of theology, Hans Kung to teach.  Kung and Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict) were colleagues at the University at Tubingen, Germany.

    Kung had just too many modern ideas but really ran afoul when he wrote of the failures of Pope Wojtyla (J.P II) and criticized  Benedict.  Kung statement that their papacy repeatedly declared fidelity to Vatican II but then betrayed it for reasons of political expediency.  

    As for the future of Burke, he is relatively young and has a considerable time remaining for mischief.  The idea of Burke working the streets of Rome is a good one, but may be a little cumbersome for him with that cappa magna, and all. We may have to get him some cargo shorts.

    Parent

    No cargo shorts (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 03:21:09 PM EST
    My vision has him trying to manage his Capps magna and his alms bowl at the same time while walking down the streets. How do you think the people on the street will react to that rather strange sight? Could be a humbling experience which IMO would be a good thing.

    Site rules prohibit me from discussing Duncehat.

    Parent

    BTW (none / 0) (#131)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 03:33:39 PM EST
    he also does not get a minion to trail behind him holding up the train on that cape.

    Parent
    It is said that the Cappa Magna (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 03:42:24 PM EST
    was designed for a medieval prince of the church so that he could ride into the towns with dignity while on horseback.  You see, the cappa magna covered the horse's a$$.   It serves that purpose today, sans horse.

    Parent
    That is so funny (none / 0) (#134)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 03:45:15 PM EST
    and so true.

    Parent
    Maybe we should give (none / 0) (#137)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 04:48:03 PM EST
    That guy with a strange hat  a Cappa Magna and let him collect alms on the street as well. It would probably be the only contribution to the common good that he has ever done.

    Parent
    if I knew he would wear all the gifts he (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 06:03:56 PM EST
    receives, I would implore that anti-JEB Iowa Republican guy, Steve Deace, to give Scalia his thong.  His looks would then match his opinions.  

    Parent
    You are on a roll tonight (none / 0) (#142)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 06:41:48 PM EST
    ROTFLMAO

    But I may never forgive you for implanting that image in my mind. It is enough to give me nightmares. ;-D

    Parent

    Why the obsessive focus on (none / 0) (#153)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 09:40:52 PM EST
    ... the New Black Panthers? This isn't the first time you've brought them up. The NBPP is hardly representative of the African-American community, any more that the Ku Klos Knights of Tennessee are emblematic of you and yours.

    The New Black Panthers are a fringe element, same as the Klan. To be sure, they bear keeping an eye on as a hate group, but you're making them out to be much more important than they really are. Like the Klan, they are an opportunistic and parasitic group that latches onto local issues and movements as a means to inflate their, but they have no reach and no real community support.

    Aloha.

    The focus is on Obama's failure to (2.67 / 3) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 09:51:24 PM EST
    press charges for their activities outside a voting place in the 2008 election.

    It was obvious voter intimidation.

    See ya later alligator.

    Parent

    "a voting place"? (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by nycstray on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 09:55:21 PM EST
    Wouldn't that be up to local law enforcement, not Obama?

    Parent
    Actually I think voter intimadation (none / 0) (#157)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 10:03:23 PM EST
    is violation of a federal law.

    Parent
    Was that the incident when an (5.00 / 3) (#175)
    by MO Blue on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 05:20:25 AM EST
    Unarmed Black Panter opened the door for voters. Wow people in that neck of the woods must be really easily intimidated.

    Think it would.be pretty hard to prosecute someone for opening a door.

    By the same token, I bet you support those cretins who show up at Mothers against Gun Violence with their AR 15s. While clearly meant to intimidate, it wasn't illegal, right.

    Well opening a door wasn't illegal either.

    Parent

    Those (5.00 / 4) (#181)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 07:17:41 AM EST
    two people were outside of an African American polling place. I would think you SHOULD like that fact. Do tell me how they suppressed voting for people who were probably voting for Obama? LOL.

    Keep it up, Jim. You're the perfect example of why the GOP is going to go all jihad in a few months with conspiracy theories.

    Parent

    I was aware that the Democrats (2.00 / 1) (#220)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 11:55:43 AM EST
    are into identity politics but I  was unaware that we now have polling places segregated by race.

    Where, pray tell, was the White American, the Hispanic American, the Middle Eastern American, the......polling places??

    In the meantime, what does the Southern Poverty Law Center has said about them:

    Under the 1965 Voting Rights Act, the Department of Justice (DOJ) brought a voter intimidation case against the Black Panthers, which have been labeled a hate group by a number of leftwing nonprofits for their anti-white and anti-Semitic rhetoric. For instance, the Southern Poverty Law Center, a civil rights organization dedicated to fighting hate and bigotry, describes the Black Panthers as a "virulently racist and anti-Semitic organization whose leaders have encouraged violence against whites, Jews and law enforcement officers."

    Link

    Parent

    This same, silly conspiracy theory (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 07:30:23 AM EST
    The focus is on Obama's failure to press charges for their activities outside a voting place in the 2008 election.  It was obvious voter intimidation.

    Then you have no idea of the definition of "voter intimidation" under the law.  Presumably, you're referring to criminal voter intimidation charges, since the Obama DOJ did pursue (and obtain a judgment and injunction) against Shabazz.  In terms of possible criminal charges, it was investigated and determined that no criminal charges justified, just as it was when the Bush DOJ investigated three anti-immigrant activists/"Minutement" with a gun at a Pima, AZ polling site.  Moreover, the DOJ's decision to not press criminal charges against Shabazz was found to be entirely justified under the facts and the law by the OPR.

    Oops.

    Parent

    Define... (none / 0) (#164)
    by unitron on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:03:05 PM EST
    ..."participate", please.

    I very much doubt that (none / 0) (#172)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Nov 08, 2014 at 11:48:57 PM EST
    a non-citizen here can have a very conflicted and perhaps harmful reason to participate in politics here unless they're a spy or an operative for a foreign power.

    Your paranoia betrays you.  It must be scary, facing all these threats to your country and your way of life.  I certainly won't want to live and think that way.

    Yep (none / 0) (#178)
    by jbindc on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 06:48:30 AM EST
    From the NYT

    With fear of being sidelined, Tea Party sees Republican rise as new threat

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 07:18:42 AM EST
    and that is why the shooting is going to start and they've got a lot of allies in the GOP.

    Some of the new senators are tea party allies like Ernst, Perdue and Gardner.

    Parent

    Black Panthers (none / 0) (#195)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 08:44:47 AM EST
    really?

    Dropping the cable movie channels (none / 0) (#202)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:13:29 AM EST
    Tomorrow.  Putting the digital antenna up by the end of the month.  We have decided to do some serious whittling.  We intend to reduce our television entertainment costs by 2/3.  Cable from now on will likely be purchased al a carte until providers can give us a reason to sign on with them.

    Fully exploring our available internet options is next.

    The bug (none / 0) (#207)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:26:09 AM EST
    is going around.  Not sure how long I will last.  
    The thing is I am going to have to have HBO.  when Westworld starts.  Other must have stuff is coming. That's about 20 buck (I think) and for about thirty more I can have it all.
    Basterds.  Cable is so dead once there is an alternative.  It will be interesting to see what the supposed coming HBO cable price will be.

    Parent
    I think I can do without Westworld (none / 0) (#210)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:33:22 AM EST
    I don't want to see Homeland as it rolls out badly enough.  I can wait.  I'm going to have to see how patient I can be when Game of Thrones starts.

    Spouse gets home from deployment soon.  The whole house needs the paint freshened, building an add on deck off our bedroom, we remodeled our kitchen fully before he left but bathrooms are next...they are 25 yrs old now and everything is an insert, hopefully I will be too busy

    Parent

    Yeah GOT too (none / 0) (#211)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 09:35:44 AM EST
    i meant to say

    Basterds.  Cable is so dead once there is an alternative.  It will be interesting to see what the supposed coming HBO INTERNET price will be.


    Parent
    I might pay the same or even (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 10:34:56 AM EST
    a little more to send the cable companies a message if I can get what I want elsewhere.
    If HBO offers an Internet subscription I hope people take it.  HBO is the biggest reason lots of people have cable.  It would really kick cable in the nuts if they were suddenly not the only place to get HBO.

    Just sayin.

    Parent

    Hopefully (none / 0) (#222)
    by Uncle Chip on Sun Nov 09, 2014 at 10:53:19 PM EST
    the Mike Brown Grand Jury hasn't been smokin' what this Grand Jury was smoking when they reached their decision.

    Friday Open Thread | 205 comments (205 topical)