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Tuesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 01:36:34 PM EST
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Here's a new open thread, all topics welcome.

I'm on a break from court and see that the Jordanian pilot was burned alive. The photos are horrific, the video is worse. No links here please.

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    Tuesday Open Thread | 200 comments (200 topical)
    No vaccinations, no hygiene (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by KeysDan on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:10:19 PM EST
    let the marketplace decide and freedom ring Republican style.   Christie and Rand Paul's, essentially, pro-measles choice position may have been out done by freshman Senator Thom Tillis (R, NC), who does not like rules and regulations, including Rules of Hygiene.

    The Republican senator believes that requiring employees to wash their hands after using the toilet is government over-reach.  "I don't have any problem  with Starbucks if they chose to opt out of this policy as long as they post a sign, we don't require our employees to wash their hands after leaving the restroom."  

    The hand of the market place must be free, apparently, but not clean.  North Carolinians need to be cautious about shaking the senator's hand,  Thom's thumb and all.  

    Libertarian philosophy run (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by christinep on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:20:51 PM EST
    amok. This forget-about-you-think-about-me national routine is painfully funny.

    Parent
    From BTDs new post (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:23:44 PM EST
    But the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States to every person within its jurisdiction does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint.


    Parent
    Yes, and North Carolinians (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by KeysDan on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:37:00 PM EST
    voted out Kay Hagan (D. NC) for Thom.  Where in the world do they get these guys?  But, then, at least he is in the US Senate and not on the Board of Health.

    Parent
    I, too, am thankful that (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by christinep on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:25:39 PM EST
    the nutso & selfish Senator Tillis is not in charge of anything connected with community health.  People with such disregard for the spread of communicable disease must have been raised on a desolate island or apart from nearby groups/towns/cities of human beings. What is a social conscience? ... they ask.

    What would happen if his entire state of North Carolina--or any state, for that matter--provided that all rules/regulations require 100& agreement & assent and that anyone who disagreed with any community/town/state/federal rule could ignore it and be "free" to do what he or she wanted?  At first, that always seemed to be a ludicrous question because we thought that only some whacko libertarian hermit would eschew any form of community (roads, schools, hospitals, town buildings, communication & travel centers, etc.) in the interests of total self-interest.  Well, Senator Tillis and some of the other naysayers offer evidence of how selfish these individual-wants-at-all-costs types can be.  A new version of I Am The State.

    Parent

    Actually... (none / 0) (#79)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 08:57:27 AM EST
    wouldn't a libertarian also oppose a "we don't force our baristas to wash their hands" sign? ;)

    Crackpot alert...I happen to believe we all wash our hands too much, use too much Lysol and hand sanitizers and antibiotics, and that it's not too healthy for the species in the long run. There's gotta be a balance between sound sanitation and hygiene practices and alarmist germophobia.

    I can't say I lose sleep over whether my barista or short order cook washed their hands after taking a leak...I'm weird like that.

    Parent

    A good balance (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by KeysDan on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 12:35:07 PM EST
    is hand washing with soap and water--soap or detergent to reduce surface tension and facilitate solution and water to wash it all  off.  Hand washing is among the simplest and safest ways to protect against diseases transmitted through oral and fecal routes--less so, to protect against airborne pathogens.

    Hand hygiene will go a long way toward preventing diseases, especially in children (and reduce the need for treatment with antibiotics.)  Hand washing is a fundamental part of health professional"s life--and, for example, infection rates, including MRSA, are diminished with effective hand washing.  

    Alcohol-based wipes can dry the hands, but are useful in the absence of hand washing capabilities.  Hand washing after urination is not, ordinarily, as critical as after other bodily evacuations.  Urine is sterile in the absence of a genitourinary tract infection.  But, there are other potential  factors that may be gong on that argue for hand washing afterward.

    Parent

    Not to be too indelicate (none / 0) (#106)
    by jbindc on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 12:58:47 PM EST
    But, especially in the case of men, it just isn't urine that may come into contact with your hands.

    Parent
    Have you ever used a restaurant restroom (none / 0) (#130)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:50:44 PM EST
    (which is usually the only restroom for the help)

    and been completely creeped out when you noticed that there was no soap in the dispenser?

    not that it mattered since it seems that most people don't wash anyway and they have to grab the communal doorhandle to get out of the bathroom...

    Parent

    Paper towel to open door (5.00 / 3) (#133)
    by nycstray on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 04:05:57 PM EST
    post hand wash. Places with decent sanitary practices will have the trash next to the door so you can drop the pt in it after you open the door.

    yes, I have passed a couple food sani certs :)

    Parent

    And the women who (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Zorba on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 04:43:58 PM EST
    Put their purses on the floor while they go just make me think "Eeeeeeewwww."  And then do they go home and put their purse on the kitchen table or counter?  Ugh.
    Most stalls have a hook for our purses.  The few times I have used a stall without a purse hook, I hang my purse around my neck.  Awkward, but better than putting it on the ground in a restroom.

    Parent
    Ha! my solution to that is to (none / 0) (#183)
    by ZtoA on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 01:51:33 AM EST
    never cary a purse. Haven't for years. Women's clothes need more pockets. In lieu of that teeth work. But, as I am sure you know very well, any mother, aunt, relative whatsoever, is subjected to some 'fecal matter' in the course of life. In this past year the only things that have threatened death for me are 1) a tooth abscess and 2) a negative medicine reaction.

    Nevertheless, I have a very close friend who had an extreme toxic exposure when she was a kid. It compromised her immune system. She is allergic to many things. One might think she is just 'making it up' but she will actually break out in lesions from certain exposures. She is a very close friend, a wonderful artist, and a great person. I am glad some people - like kdog - can get away with exposures to certain things. But not everyone can. And those who can't are worth saving. Washing one's hands for others is a small price to pay for that.  

    Parent

    I would still (none / 0) (#188)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 07:08:31 AM EST
    Wash my hands, even with no soap, open the for with a paper towel, and use hand sanitizer after that (while trying not to touch too much in between).

    Parent
    My general routine is, (none / 0) (#190)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 09:15:43 AM EST
    "wash" well with water, dry hands, apply sanitizer, use paper towel to open doors, discard paper towel.

    During cold and flu season, I also am more mindful of things as seemingly innocuous as elevator buttons: those get the knuckle and not the fingertip.  

    Parent

    And push to open doors (none / 0) (#191)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 09:17:00 AM EST
    with the forearm or elbow.

    Parent
    And hold it open with hip and/or foot (none / 0) (#197)
    by nycstray on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 11:19:55 AM EST
    while discarding towel or being polite ;)

    Parent
    Yep - that too. (none / 0) (#198)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 11:21:51 AM EST
    A couple weeks ago, my mom got the flu.  She lives in a retirement community and was able to get the Tamiflu the same day she woke up with symptoms, and it worked well for her.

    Since I knew she wasn't going to be able to get out and get any food or supplies she needed, I offered to go to the store - and also made a great chicken and rice soup for when she was feeling like eating again.

    I joked that I was going to bring them over, set the bags outside her door, knock and run, so as not to be exposed...as it turned out, I didn't do that, but I did not take my gloves off the entire time I was in her apartment - and when I got back to my car, I used hand sanitizer on my gloves, just in case!

    And on the steering wheel, as well...when it comes to the flu, I'd rather be a little OCD than stuck in bed with fever and body aches for days (I had the shot, too, but I understand it's not been very effective).

    Parent

    Every time I exit a public place (none / 0) (#200)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 11:24:34 AM EST
    supermarket, drugstore I shmear my hands with antibacterial stuff and shmear the steering wheel.

     

    Parent

    Funny... (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:35:24 PM EST
    ...considering the Ebola freakout.

    One week they are running around scaring the entire country into a Ebola lockdown, the next week 'vaccinations optional'.

    Parent

    so obsurd (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by CST on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:37:50 PM EST
    when you consider Chris Christie forced a nurse into quarantine after she came back from West Africa.

    Parent
    Nurse Kaci Hickox (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by KeysDan on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:52:10 PM EST
    has not forgotten Governor Christie--she says, regarding his pro measles choice position,  that he is still ignoring science and making ill-informed statements.  

    Parent
    "Forget it, Jake -- it's Benghazi." (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:06:59 PM EST
    Why should this week and month be any different from earlier weeks and months, eh?

    Personally, I'm wondering whether or not the prior generation of Republicans mated en masse with their first cousins, in order to produce this bumper crop of reality-challenged yahoos.

    ;-D

    Parent

    Top of the list of (none / 0) (#29)
    by christinep on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:42:31 PM EST
    the best laugh this month! Thanks, Donald.

    Parent
    And just think! (none / 0) (#39)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 04:31:38 PM EST
    It's only February 3!
    ;-D

    Parent
    Where do they get these people, and (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Anne on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:09:54 PM EST
    why do people actually vote for them?  What next?  Make washing the dishes and cutlery optional, or just have the staff lick everything "clean?"

    Note: don't shake this man's hand; we know where it's been and what he's been doing with it.

    I'm starting to think the stupid is contagious and we desperately need a vaccine or a cure before more people catch it.

    Of course, those who really need it are the ones who won't get it, having matriculated at the same "University of Google" where Jenny McCarthy got her "degree."

    Parent

    Republicans (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by FlJoe on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 04:21:38 PM EST
    are the new anarchists. Freedom trumps science, common sense and common human decency. How crazy can they get?

    Parent
    Bahaha (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:18:43 PM EST
    i wonder if he would be willing to legally force them to post a sign saying the do not require their employees to wash their hands?
    Or are we supposed to guess?

    Amazing.

    Parent

    Hate to break it to ya Cap... (none / 0) (#80)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:01:39 AM EST
    regardless of law or no law, we're always left guessing...

    "Get that finger out of your ear! You don't where that finger's been!"
     - Rex Kramer

    Parent

    Too true (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:11:18 AM EST

    (CNN) -- It fizzes. It quenches. And it could also contain fecal bacteria.
    Nearly half of the 90 beverages from soda fountain machines in one area in Virginia tested positive for coliform bacteria -- which could indicate possible fecal contamination, according to a study published in the January issue of International Journal of Food Microbiology.


    Parent
    My motto... (none / 0) (#83)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:34:24 AM EST
    don't sweat the small stuff...if we can convince people vaccinating is still the best bet I'll be happy to gamble at White Castles...sh&t it's a gamble regardless!

    As for food service, I would worry more about what the heat might be releasing from the thin throw away gloves than what's on the server's hands.  When I'm at the deli I always feel like telling the guy "You don't gotta put the stupid gloves on for my sake, I like to exercise my immunes."  

    Parent

    Having worked in a few restaurants (none / 0) (#84)
    by CST on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:49:06 AM EST
    I can say with confidence - that if you are a germaphobe you should just never eat out.

    These were not dirty/health-code-violating places.  Just your average - nice restaurant.  $hit happens - and there is too much going on to keep everything spotless all the time.

    Parent

    Still (none / 0) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:52:43 AM EST
    feces in the ice cubes?

    Steak and Shake - In Sight It Must Be Right!

    Parent

    I believe the saying is... (none / 0) (#90)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 10:30:19 AM EST
    "sh*t happens".

    Not to alarm you but I'll eat my lunch at my desk right next to pile of pump tags that came off of used sewage pumps aka sh&t tags.  I like to live dangerously.

    Parent

    Alright, That is Diguisting... (none / 0) (#105)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 12:48:15 PM EST
    ...and I am all about keeping the immune system robust, but part of that is also taking the word of scientists and doctors in displaying some level of hygiene.

    I never use soap, but I always wash.  Soap (public soap) dries out your skin, which gives bacteria far more places to shack up.   And while a sign isn't going to make anyone wash their hands, I am positive I could not eat anywhere without convincing myself that decent human beings wash their hands, sign or no sign.

    Bacteria/germs and viruses have been waging war on man since man was a four legged mammal.  Our best defense, as proven throughout history and by science, again and again, is cleanliness, namely washing hands and covering ones mouth.

    My immune system is fit as fit can be, not by neglecting hygiene but by eating right and being cognizant of the science of germs.

    kdog, just because you aren't getting sick eating next to waste, doesn't mean you are not spreading sickness to other people.  Grow up and wash your GD hands so the rest of us don't catch whatever it is you decide to eat your lunch next to, that is what grown folks do who live in a society.

    Parent

    Relax Holmes... (none / 0) (#108)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 01:14:27 PM EST
    cleanliness can be achieved without getting anal about it.  And over-cleanliness creates it's own set of problems.  The reason we are still here is our ancestors came in contact with all kinds of germs/bacteria/viruses...and beat them.

    And not to alarm you 2x, but there's probably just as much fecal matter on your toothbrush as there is left on these pump tags.  Should I need to perform emergency surgery I'll be sure to scrub up...don't worry.


    Parent

    The Reason... (none / 0) (#118)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:22:16 PM EST
    ...most ancestors didn't make it to be here is disease caused by unsanitary conditions.

    And washing your hands after using the restroom is not being anal, it's being a responsible/respectful adult.

    FYI, my Sonicare is bathed in UV light every couple of days, so you are 100% correct, I would be shocked to find UV resilient fecal bacteria on my toothbrush.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#121)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:39:00 PM EST
    I survived working in a slaughterhouse, a hospital, a fishing boat, and changed diapers on top of that..

    That's a lot of blood, guts, and sh*t flying around, to paraphrase both Churchill and William S Burroughs..

    We're much more resilient than we think we are.

    Parent

    But the ones that did make it... (none / 0) (#126)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:44:37 PM EST
    are stronger for it...it's Darwin man!

    My cavalier attitude might stem from swimming and fishing in Flushing Bay as a young boy...which was basically raw sewage at that time.  I personally never ate those radioactive Snappers, but my old fishing buddy's grandmother loved 'em.

    I've grossed you out enough for one day...  

    Parent

    there's a great picture of me (none / 0) (#129)
    by CST on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:48:25 PM EST
    at about 8 months old shoving mud into my mouth from a city playground in a neighborhood that was previously industrial and has a hard time sprouting any kind of life out of the ground.

    I also swam in Boston harbor before it was cleaned up...

    That being said - I do wash my hands after using the bathroom.  But I try not to worry too much about what others do with their hands.

    Parent

    kdog you are one lucky dude (none / 0) (#184)
    by ZtoA on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 02:10:02 AM EST
    Blessed with a very healthy body. That is great, and that kind of health should be promoted.

    But not every last person has your luck, and they are also worthy humans. One of my very closest friends was exposed to toxic substances when she was a child - a paint factory where her dad worked and she worked too. As a result her immune system is not 'normal'. I can march (with my cane) into a room where the floors were finished 4 weeks ago and be fine (the ventilation is good), but she will immediately break out in lesions all over her exposed legs. Maybe she should wear her hazmat suit everywhere she goes?

    She is a very valuable person - to her family and to her friends. She is also a great artist. She contributes to our local culture and society greatly and works to do that. She has to be very careful whenever she goes out to any restaurant.

    I have been in the situation where I do not care whatever someone exposes themselves to - having worked in many disgusting jobs - waitress, 7-11 night shift clerk, street artist, chamber maid, etc., and I survived them all. No one had to wash their hands for me! (I am macho enough to brag about that - wish I could brag about my health at this point tho, since I can no longer do that). But you might consider that other humans might need some consideration and some hand washing.

    Parent

    That's a damn good idea Scott, (none / 0) (#137)
    by fishcamp on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 04:32:47 PM EST
    and I'm going to start doing that to my Sonicare immediately.  The gym I go to has sani wipes all around, both for hands and sweat on the machines.  When I leave I wash with soap and water, since there are people there that could have any type of virus.  Then I usually go to the grocery store, and they have wipes at the entrance, for the shopping carts.  I'v been lucky since I just don't get colds or the flu, but that bad boy Chickengunya mosquito knocked me on my butt.  I did get almost all the way through my gym routine this morning, before I got dizzy and had to quit.  Soon  it will be over.

    Parent
    If everyone would just shut the lid (none / 0) (#119)
    by Zorba on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:38:13 PM EST
    on the toilet seat before flushing, there would be a lot less fecal material on their toothbrushes.  And their towels.  And their combs, and everything else in their bathrooms.
    Whatever is in that toilet bowl can get aerosolized and thrown in the air when you flush.
    So close the lid first.      ;-)

    Parent
    That's why they put a lid on it (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by jbindc on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:53:43 PM EST
    Bonus:  no more arguments about someone leaving the seat up.  :)

    Parent
    Don't try that at my house... (none / 0) (#131)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:51:26 PM EST
    unless you're gonna re-open it post-flush...I know exactly where to stand in the middle of the night to pee with my eyes closed and lights off so I can get right back to sleep.

    In a 3 Male 1 Female household, the seat and lid up is the default position.

    Parent

    Insanity... (none / 0) (#40)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 04:34:44 PM EST
    ...only two states do not have religious and philosophical exemptions for vaccines.

    Only Mississippi and West Virginia if you can believe it, all other states one can choose not to vaccinate their children.

    LINK

    Parent

    There's a reason... (none / 0) (#60)
    by unitron on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 08:49:13 PM EST
    ...why Charles P. Pierce refers to us as "the newly insane state of North Carolina."

    Parent
    I am truly puzzled (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:31:33 PM EST
    by what they expect to accomplish by this brutal new execution.  
    Tactically, strategically, what's the point?  Clearly it should help divide their supporters from their detractors, as if that was needed, but I really don't see how it helps them to both alienate nearly everyone and at the same time prove beyond any doubt that bargaining with them is a fools errand.

    It may be (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by christinep on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:04:29 PM EST
    that ISIS has set itself on a downward spiral in a futile attempt to maintain control of the horror ... because, as each level of close-up barbarity is repeated and the funds dry up, they've doomed themselves to their own descent into hell.  They are forced to outdo themselves in horror, as it were; in so doing, they have deprived themselves of whatever purpose that may have been buried somewhere in the past.  They cannot leave the earth soon enough for the rest of the world.

    Parent
    Just heard a guy say (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:08:47 PM EST
    what we have heard before, that they are very good at using media and that this is as you say an attempt to show their supporters they are far from done and still capable of spreading fear and terror.
    IMO bad decision.  But what do I know.


    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#65)
    by Jack203 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 10:06:48 PM EST
    Judging from past events, the more desperate one side of a conflict is, the more they will resort to atrocities.  

    I think  we are seeing the classic signs of a  cornered foe that is lashing out the only way they know how.  They are a cancer, and the only way ISIS survives is if they spread.  What concerns me the most were the reports that groups loyal to ISIS were popping up in Libya and other countries.  They could potentially be more of a danger than the psychos in Iraq and Syria.

    The next big battle with Isis is Mosul.  If Mosul falls to the Kurds. Isis and their followers will no longer be able to claim they are on the offensive.  Their image will not only be of psychos, but also losers.   Best case scenario at that point is perhaps then the Sunni tribes will have enough power to overthrow ISIS rule and come to the bargaining table.  This is admittedly, wishful thinking.

    Our ultimate goal should be peace with the Sunnis in Iraq and Syria.  I do not understand why nobody seems to have a solution to the problem other than killing them.

    Parent

    ISIS can only win (4.00 / 1) (#15)
    by MKS on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:57:27 PM EST
    publicity.  This reassures its members it is still fighting.

    It does what any terrorist wants to do: scare America and others.

    I hope we do not over react to this murder....The media is complicit in fanning the flames of war.   Just as it did--even the New York Times--when Bush and Cheney wanted to invade Iraq.

    Parent

    A man was burned alive (none / 0) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:01:31 PM EST
    in a cage.  On video.  With multiple subtitles.  It would be hard to ignore.  Don't you think?

    Parent
    It was a brutal murder (none / 0) (#73)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 12:16:15 AM EST
    But unfortunately not unusual except in perhaps how it was done.

    Parent
    MKS: That sure is an understatement (none / 0) (#101)
    by christinep on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 11:53:15 AM EST
    "Huh," thought I, "... is that a robot statement!"

    Parent
    No, it is an attempt to accurately (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 02:43:32 PM EST
    describe what occurred, rather than the crazed reporting that is herding people into full panic mode.

    It was a murder.  Not the basis for war.  See Gulf of Tonkin.

    Parent

    I understand ... yet, the opposite approach (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by christinep on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 06:01:18 PM EST
    of distancing from feeling, distancing from what has happened (quite different than the fabrication--unseen--of Tonkin), distancing to avoid further involvement (even when there is and should be no indication that stepped up military action from US should occur) could be just as debilitating.  

    Look, I was very active in opposition to Vietnam from @1967 on ... and, to this day, I believe that that phony entrée to Vietnam was more than wrong.  The same can be said for our involvement in Iraq ... maybe more so, since we should have remembered the likely trajectory.  Even with that in mind, I allow myself to feel the repulsion of acts of barbarity.  These demonstrated & in-your-face assaults on humanity should be faced, acknowledged, and dealt with as sentient beings.  Finally: To "deal with" does not mean reacting in kind nor in war ... it also doesn't mean "see no evil, hear no evil."

    BTW, from what I've read about reports from the Mideast today, the immolation murder seems to have stirred many leading figures in Islam (esp Sunnis) to condemn in the strongest terms this despicable act.  

    Again: Recognizing the horrible reality does not equate with a march to war.  Quite the contrary for us ... with this President at the helm, I fully expect that we will not act in the savage way that we have just witnessed. This President, I believe, learns from history ... there will not be a repetition of the hysterical response here that you may fear.  (MKS: I know that this response has a preachy quality; but, I'm speaking from the heart.)

    Parent

    Knowing all the details (none / 0) (#160)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 08:34:51 PM EST
    and dwelling on the mechanics of the event seems ghoulish and voyeuristic.

    Parent
    That's an amazing comment (none / 0) (#161)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 08:44:13 PM EST


    Parent
    Go ahead and explain (none / 0) (#164)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:03:42 PM EST


    Parent
    Ok (none / 0) (#166)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:09:08 PM EST
    Knowing all the details  seems ghoulish and voyeuristic.

    Is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.  
    How can you possibly have a valid opinion of anything if you don't know the details.


    Parent

    You and I have differed over this (none / 0) (#167)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:31:45 PM EST
    You are imo too fascinated and overwhelmed by the power and viciousness of ISIS.

    So, did you watch the video?

    And, I find your approach quite concerning.  Do you watch videos of executions?

    Parent

    Whatever (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:41:29 PM EST
    since you have chosen to not know what you are talking about your opinion is not that important to me.  

    I did watch the video.  And I have seen a couple of the others.  

    Parent

    Not really (none / 0) (#175)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:54:56 PM EST
    Courts of law often exclude the gory photos.   The emotional reaction can be too overwhelming.

    If knowing the details were necessary to know who the perpetrator was, whether the act was intentional or in self-defense, who the victim was, etc.   But we already know all that.

    I bet dollars to donuts that Jeralyn has written any number of motions in limine to exclude gory photos from the jury.   In those cases where the photos are excluded, the judge has determined that they are not necessary to knowing the truth of what occurred.

    Here it is just a matter of personal preference....IMO you honor ISIS by watching the video.

    Parent

    She has probably also seen the video (none / 0) (#176)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:56:59 PM EST
    if not this one she has said she watched others.  Why?  So she would know what she was talking about.

    Parent
    And you act just as ISIS would (none / 0) (#168)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:39:27 PM EST
    have you act.

    You watch what they want you to watch--or dwell on the details in print.  You react in fear and horror.  You give ISIS exactly what it wants.

    Most of us seem to understand that feeding the publicity mongers is a bad idea for these crazed gunmen who shoot our children in schools.  

    You are playing into ISIS's hands by giving them too much attention and credit for being powerful, etc.

    Parent

    MKS this is not information presented to (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by ZtoA on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 11:25:44 PM EST
    a court of law. It is the "art" of fear and dominance.

    I won't watch it, because I know I can't at this point in time. But I'm G-D glad at least others and esp the media will watch it. If the US media ignored it and did not inform the US public about it then you (as in 'we') would not like that either. Sometimes ignoring some power (think Nazis) simply will not work. That works for some things, but not for all.

    Also if you or I cannot or will not watch it does not mean that everyone else has to feel the same way.

    Parent

    ISIS is not Nazi Germany (none / 0) (#182)
    by MKS on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 01:42:41 AM EST
    This is exactly what I am talking about.

    Panic.  Fear.  Rush to Judgment......This just plays into the hands of ISIS.  

    The video is meant to cause fear and inspire awe among potential recruits  Fox News is one of the few places apparently that you can see the video.  Many do not carry it because doing so is only publishing propaganda.

    No one is talking about ignorance or not being informed....

    Parent

    All that seems relevant (none / 0) (#165)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:07:18 PM EST
    is that ISIS tortured and killed a pilot it captured.  

    All this fascination with how he was killed....is too much imo.   But it is a free country.....

    For Christine, ghoulish, explicit photos are often excluded at trial as unduly prejudicial, or because the probative value is outweighed by its prejudicial effect.

    In my opinion, it is ISIS p*rn....adding nothing substantive to our knowledge.

    Parent

    Of course it is P#orn (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by ZtoA on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 02:31:23 AM EST
     it is intended as that. Obviously.

    The entire world will see that p*rn. Are you someone who does not want anyone in this country to realize or see it?

    I am entering my 'elder' age and so need to start to manage my intake of info. Young people manage their intake because they are so very busy with life, love, sex, babies, etc etc etc. We all get filters.

    I've been finding as I get older and more health vulnerable that I need some filters - but not everyone does - and thank them for that! Some of the best journalists bring these 'p*orn' images to us at great risk to themselves. That is a truly 'burn out' job, but I'm grateful when a human can do it even for a little time. I'm grateful when someone can watch this kind of thing even tho I cannot.  

    War and murder are now internet communications. This is a new time. We are in the digital or electronic or connectivity (or whatever it is called) REVOLUTION. Seriously, this is a revolution like the industrial revolution. Not partisan, but cultural, social, global.

    I agree that this may not be 'substantive', but is is 'communicative'.  Many humans (who are probably younger than you or I) do not want or demand proper 'links' to proper 'sources' for their information. Please recognize the importance of these visual statements.

    Parent

    MKS: A word (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by christinep on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 10:49:40 AM EST
    As for me and watching these horrors: No, I do not and have not (nor do I expect that I will.)

    My comments to you are about something entirely different.  First, the only reason I commented is because I have come to respect and appreciate a number of your remarks over the past few years.  Second, and in the same context, your comment seemed almost clinical to me ... and, the impression that left with me (in my imagination, of course) is that of one in an emotion-denying phase.  I respect whatever your reaction is, MKS ... at the same time, my point is that a person can digest and recognize a crossing-the-line-into-barbarity event for what it is and without dwelling on gruesome details AND without fearing that will cause a repeat of war.  It is about the recognition of humanity, imo.  That is all that I meant to say.

    Parent

    Well that settles it (none / 0) (#172)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:44:33 PM EST
    the immolation murder seems to have stirred many leading figures in Islam (esp Sunnis) to condemn in the strongest terms this despicable act.  

    ISIS is done for.

    Parent

    He was a pilot; they gave him a treatment (none / 0) (#12)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:42:24 PM EST
    probably like what he or his compatriots had dumped on them.  

    Some pretty horrific stuff gets dropped from planes.  Napalm, white phosphorus,  fuel-air bombs, cluster bombs, lots and lots of bullets... the list goes on.

    Parent

    Sure (none / 0) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:50:45 PM EST
    but that doesn't change my comment.  Does this make that point, I guess.  It's also going to cause a massive backlash.  

    Another thing, why are people still calling these people "the Islamic State"?  Why is there not a massive outcry from the Islamic world about that title?  

    Parent

    IS (none / 0) (#20)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:06:24 PM EST
    Another thing, why are people still calling these people "the Islamic State"?  Why is there not a massive outcry from the Islamic world about that title?  

    Excellent point --

    Parent

    who would you expect a response from? (none / 0) (#24)
    by CST on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:15:22 PM EST
    It's not like there is an Islamic Pope.

    The Saudi's?  That's the home of Mecca - but it's not like the leadership is full of rainbows and puppies over there either.

    Also - plenty of leaders in the Islamic world - including the Saudi's - have said stuff to that degree - but it doesn't go reported in U.S. news and so this contention get's repeated.

    Would anyone here even know if there was a massive outcry in the Islamic world?  Honestly?

    Parent

    Maybe (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:35:28 PM EST
    but they are doing a pretty good job of reporting the demonstrations happening in Jordan right now.  The reporting is that the socalled coalition that includes Jordan might fracture because of this.  Although I believe the King has said it will not he may be under great pressure.  At which point, what?  It's our fight? I don't think so.  If those in the region don't think this is a fight worth having, IMO leave them to it.

    Parent
    CSIS (none / 0) (#50)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 06:18:22 PM EST
    They can start calling them what they are:

    CSIS -- the Criminal State of Iraq and Syria.

    That's not too hard, is it???

    Parent

    who is They? (none / 0) (#85)
    by CST on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:51:00 AM EST
    And if "they" started calling them that - and the U.S. media still called them ISIS - would you even notice that "they" called them that?

    Parent
    You didn't ask me (none / 0) (#89)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 10:19:15 AM EST
    but my "they" definitely included the American media.  And I disagree.  We hear from Islamic voices all the time.  All, IMO, it would take is a couple of people coming on the talk shows and saying 'stop calling them The Islamic State.  I'm Muslim and they do not represent me or anyone I know.  It's offensive.  Stop doing it".  And I predict in short order the only place in american media you would hear that term is on the right wing echo chamber.

    I would ask how long it would take for something similar to happen if it was the Christian State?

    Parent

    I just heard Richard Engle say (none / 0) (#98)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 11:13:45 AM EST
    this might just be happening.  Jordan and others are starting into push back on the idea of an "Islamic State"

    Parent
    grimace - that's not what I call them. (none / 0) (#120)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:38:48 PM EST
    What I call them begins with the letter A.

    As for why there is no universal outcry, it's because there's no monolithic opinion.  They have a lot of supporters and sympathizers.

    Parent

    Lets see your link for munitions used thus far by (none / 0) (#43)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 04:54:29 PM EST
    the Coalition aircraft.  My guess is none of what you listed , excepting bullets, has been used.  Vast majority would be precision bombs.

    Parent
    Fallujah. (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:39:30 PM EST
    I rest my case.

    Parent
    Precision bombs is one of those... (5.00 / 3) (#158)
    by desertswine on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 08:07:40 PM EST
    oxymorons... like Jumbo Shrimp, Clean coal, or Compassionate Conservative.  

    Parent
    Let's see the list. (none / 0) (#156)
    by Wile ECoyote on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 08:02:10 PM EST


    Parent
    I have no idea what they drop (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 08:06:43 PM EST
    but I just watched the new video.  There is a rather excruciatingly long segment, before the big event, of dead burned children.  One after another after another.  Making the point rather well that they were,  from their point of view, giving as good as they get.

    I encourage you to watch it.

    Parent

    First, show me the precision (none / 0) (#192)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 10:05:22 AM EST
    in this photo of post rout Kobane.

    Precision weapons are expensive.  According to wiki, $25,000 per bomb just for the guidance kit.  That doesn't include the cockpit interface or the training or technical support.  And those are American prices, not the price foreign nations pay.

    Sometime during the Iraq war a price list surfaced.  Dumb bombs could be had for $500-$700 apiece.

    Americans may be using precision guidance on some of their bombs but Jordan isn't a wealthy country.

    And, more to the point, the guidance units can be attached to anything they will fit, anything the DOD's unseen army of Dr. Strangeloves can gin up.


    Parent

    ISIS knows exactly what it's doing (none / 0) (#30)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:44:57 PM EST
    To understand their tactics you have to understand what their goal is.

    The goal is for the entire world to live under their version of Islam by any means necessary and any means is based on mid evil warfare as existed during the time of their profit Mohammed.

    Inside their version of Islam there are no limits to the tactics that can be used to achieve their goal because in their minds the goal is decreed by Mohammed through the Qur'an and Ha'Dith.   Read about the tactics Mohammed used in conquering the early Islamic world and nothing they are doing now should be surprising.

    For them I think the purpose of these horrible yet heavily marketed events is to show their followers and their potential followers how far they are willing to go achieve their ultimate goal.   That they are not just a terrorist organization but a modern day army of jihad just like the early armies that allowed Mohammed to conquer the early Islamic world.  all the way down to what the flag represents in terms of belief and military tactics.

    What we would see as off-putting they feel others would see as a sign of their commitment to the cause.

    Parent

    Again, sure (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:53:43 PM EST
    i get all that.  I guess my point is I disagree with the strategy.   I think they may (MAY) find that what worked in the 12th century, or whenever, doesn't necessarily work today.  They may well turn on their lunatic supporters by this but it seems to me just as likely they will turn off enough people, potential supporters, I assume without knowing that the guy was a Muslim, that it might just turn the tide against them.  
    But again, what do I know.  Their tactics have worked pretty well so far.

    Just seems like a bad, almost desperate, decision to me.

    Parent

    Yes, desperate (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 12:21:11 AM EST
    If they had the ability to really conquer or threaten the entire world, they wouldn't need to murder people in these gruesome ways to get attention.

    They are in many ways related to these gunmen who shoot kids in school.  Filled with impotent rage, they kill for publicity.....  

    Parent

    Because you're not insane (none / 0) (#49)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 06:15:05 PM EST
    I hope you are right and that their continued barbaric actions forces the moderate Islamic world to take responsibility and fight these guys but what evidence do we have to support this outcome?

    While I criticize the Obama administration's issue with word games and their terrible negotiations with Iran, I agree with him that the ISIS issue is not a problem we can solve militarily by ourselves and the little action we are taking now is pointless.  

    Obama was handed a hot mess by the previous administration because we disrupted the equilibrium of Iraq and the greater Middle East in the futile attempt to establish democracy.

    What he should be doing is putting much greater pressure on the moderate nations or whatever you want to call them in the middle east to take care of this problem them selves. Or leading an international coalition to fight this radical group.  I only bring up the coalition business because unfortunately I worry that the Middle East and the world in general will do nothing unless we take the lead.

    Parent

    Time lapse (none / 0) (#34)
    by christinep on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:56:42 PM EST
    Centuries ago, Vlad the Impaler displayed power via the heads impaled on spikes on the road to his cities.  That was then .... that was centuries ago.  Centuries ago.

    Parent
    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 06:05:56 PM EST
    And ISIS is fighting like its 637.

    Parent
    I think they've moved beyond... (none / 0) (#61)
    by unitron on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 08:56:38 PM EST
    ...mid evil to full blown flat out evil.

    : - )

    Parent

    The goal to conquer the entire world (none / 0) (#74)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 12:18:43 AM EST
    Do they really say that?

    I have heard them say they want to control the Arab or Muslim world.

    They have no ability to control the entire world.  That is delusional.  For us to believe they can control the entire world is to allow panic to control rational thought.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#102)
    by Slado on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 12:08:38 PM EST
    They are taking the most conservative view that by bringing Islam to the entire world there will be peace.

    Is this goal attainable? Of coarse not. But it is ultimately their goal because in their minds their religion calls for it to be so. There is no God but Allah.

    If we are serious about the feeding them we have to realize what we are fighting. They do not want to negotiate. They do not want to live side-by-side. They want us to be Muslim and they want everyone who becomes Muslim under their rule to live under their form of sharia law.

    It's not just ISIS but the extreme or radical Islamic preachers. Just listen to what they say and they'll  tell you what they and groups like ISIS want.

    Parent

    The amount of panic and attention (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 02:41:09 PM EST
    they create is disproportional to the actual threat.

    ISIS is not going to take over Boise and start beheading people.   But you would think that is exactly what is going to happen if you watch t.v.

    The attempt to drive ratings and dramatize the news creates this distortion.  And, next we will have the successor to Judith Miller at the New York Times clamoring for military action.  This is how people are panicked into making bad decisions....like invading Iraq.

    Parent

    The only reason we don't (none / 0) (#187)
    by Slado on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 04:02:19 AM EST
    Just entirely disengage is we created this mess in Iraq and on some level we have owe them protection from being completely overrun by ISIS.

    From what I can gather this is the position our President holds even though he won't say so and instead does his empty Saber rattling about "destroying" ISIS and presents no strategy of how he'd pull either off or now how we're doing and what the end game is.

    I feel we should challenge Turkey, Jordan and the other "coalition nations" to confront them on the ground and destroy them.   ISIS is their problem despite all of our previous errors and we will because of this provide all the air support and advisors they need but not US troops.

    Domestically and internationaly we need to start challenging both the Radical and Moderate Islamic world more forcefully.   I don't want to hear another US politician who isn't himself a Muslim tell me what Islam is.

    Right now the theology and ideas of Radical Islam are a threat and we should publicly discuss and counter these ideas which are the motivation for ISIS and the terror events we see around the world.  In addition we should stop standing side by side with "moderates" to show how understanding we are and instead challenge them to clean up their house and put a stop to these Radical Preschers who often hide behind and within "moderate" groups like CAIR and the such.
     

    Parent

    ISIS knows exactly what it's doing (none / 0) (#31)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:50:43 PM EST
    To understand their tactics you have to understand what their goal is.

    The goal is for the entire world to live under their version of Islam by any means necessary and any means is based on mid evil warfare as existed during the time of their profit Mohammed.

    Inside their version of Islam there are no limits to the tactics that can be used to achieve their goal because in their minds the goal is decreed by Mohammed through the Qur'an and Ha'Dith.   Read about the tactics Mohammed used in conquering the early Islamic world and nothing they are doing now should be surprising.

    For them I think the purpose of these horrible yet heavily marketed events is to show their followers and their potential followers how far they are willing to go achieve their ultimate goal.   That they are not just a terrorist organization but a modern day army of jihad just like the early armies that allowed Mohammed to conquer the early Islamic world.  all the way down to what the flag represents in terms of belief and military tactics.

    What we would see as off-putting they feel others would see as a sign of their commitment to the cause.

    These guys mean business and are true believers.   There is no negotiating with them.  We have to decide do we engage them militarily and destroy them or start demanding from our "Allies" in the region and "moderate" Islam that they start cleaning up the mess within their religion and region of the world.

    I favor tactic two because we've lost our credibility on this issue from our past actions and we now have an administration that has no policy and can't even call the threat what it is without getting in a war of words with itself.

    Parent

    I also agree with (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:58:04 PM EST
    choice 2.  And if there was any doubt about the pointlessness of negotiating with them they certainly just removed it by engaging in long public bargaining for a dead guy.

    Parent
    Meanwhile, as ... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:34:21 PM EST
    ... the USS Porky's cruises offshore, somewhere off the Southern California coast:

    Navy Times | February 3, 2015
    NCIS probes alleged illegal filming in women's bathroom on carrier John C. Stennis -- "A lieutenant embarked for training on board the Bremerton, Washington-based carrier John C. Stennis is under investigation for allegedly trying to record women inside the female officers' bathroom. It is the second investigation in the past two months into Navy personnel allegedly attempting to film women in the bathroom while underway. According to a document obtained by Navy Times, the junior officer was caught standing outside the women's bathroom dressed in PT gear with a handheld electronic device held to a ventilation grate 'positioned to view the interior of the female head.'"

    But then, he ran afoul of Lt. Beulah Balbricker:

    "When a woman aboard Stennis approached the 33-year-old lieutenant, he is reported to have said "sorry," and left the area. The woman later identified the lieutenant eating in the wardroom and ship's security seized his personal electronic devices, according to the Navy message released on the incident."

    And apparently, this is just the latest incident involving the videotaping of female personnel on Navy ships. There have been others.

    How long now before we hear the first of a series of complaints from resident members of the cable news peanut gallery, protesting or at least lamenting the presence of female officers and crew onboard U.S. Navy combat vessels?

    I have to keep telling myself that it's 2015, and not 1955.

    No doubt, you are unfortunately right (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Zorba on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 04:03:37 PM EST
    How about, instead, they get rid of the @ssholes who would do such things?
    Do we really want such jerks in our military?
    Courts martial and dishonorable discharges, and losing all of their accumulated military veteran benefits, would at the very least be a start, if not more robust punishments.

    Parent
    Lt. Beulah Balbricker - what a perfect name (none / 0) (#123)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:39:58 PM EST
    Glad she is on the job!

    Parent
    Porky's reference: (none / 0) (#134)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 04:13:53 PM EST
    Beulah Balbricker

    Parent
    oh, well that's very different.... - never mind (none / 0) (#169)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:40:02 PM EST
    said Emily

    Parent
    Salespeople - where are you? (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Slado on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 08:12:12 PM EST
    WSJ - Getting harder to find

    Glad as a lifelong sales professional to see this issue brought to light. For one because I've never felt that true professional sales people get the respect they deserve for their talent and skill.

    More importantly because I think new college graduates are lacking in many of the skills required to be a good salesperson. Mainly the ability to talk and have a conversation with another person in a format other than email or texting.   All good sales are usually made face-to-face with a handshake.  Long-term relationships are built face-to-face not via the web.  

    Technology and social media have changed the profession and made it more efficient but ultimately it boils down to a one on one personal relationship.  Maybe I'm old fashioned but from my experience too many of our younger people lack basic communication skills as they constantly communicate via email, twitter and other forms of electronic communication bypassing face-to-face contact.

    Also I am continually disappointed that not enough  women try to enter this field. Note the author of this piece chose to use salesman rather than sales person.  This is an issue as scores of well educated and well rounded people could become good sales people if they didn't feel that it was more of a man's game and more people in management weren't concerned that men would rather buy from men.  Coming from the construction industry I can tell you this is a stereotype that is pervasive.

    My husband (none / 0) (#56)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 08:43:16 PM EST
    is in sales and would agree with you 100% on what you have said.

    And as far as women, I sure see plenty of them as pharmaceutical reps when I go to the doctor's office but another part of it seems to be that a lot of firms don't want to hire women to sell things like construction equipment.

    Taking it even further sales has been eliminated or severely downgraded in a lot of retail establishments. I go into a department store these days and it's almost like going to a more expensive version of Wal-Mart.

    Parent

    Well, its been almost 13 (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 09:46:37 PM EST
    years since I hung up my "Road Warrior" cape and started using rather than accumulating frequent flyer miles and free hotel stays, but even back then emails and voice mail was replacing face to face selling with poor results.

    "Sales" is such a diverse field it is easy to generalize but in large ticket/complex sales if you can't get face to face and get the customer's confidence in you then you aren't going to get the order because the person who signs off on that million dollar plus deal "owns" the deal inside and if things don't work out they are badly harmed.

    I had close association with two female sales VP's and had two female sales persons reporting to me plus a lot of the support people were females. The relationships were professional, fun and mutually profitable.

    Parent

    In my business... (none / 0) (#91)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 10:41:27 AM EST
    he who hands out the Yankee tickets gets the sale...whether they are handed out in person or by email. ;)

    Speaking as an "inside sales" guy, I much prefer email to phone calls.  It avoids all that "he said/he said" crap when it comes to a discrepancy as you have an electronic record of the correspondence.  And for my factory contacts I find it is more considerate to email a request as opposed to calling someone who may be in the middle of something important requiring their complete attention.  And appreciate the same from customers unless it's a true emergency...nothing worse than doing brain salad surgery interpreting a job spec to quote a big money job correctly and some knucklehead interrupts with a phone call to request a RGA for a 5 dollar part.  

    There is certainly a need for face to face relationships to build trust and rapport, but I think it's over-rated.   Whatever gets the job done best, and often times that is email.

    Parent

    Something I know a little about. (none / 0) (#93)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 10:57:23 AM EST
    In sales there are hunters and there are farmers. Different industries rely - out of necessity - on one more than the other.

    Parent
    We're farmers then... (none / 0) (#95)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 11:08:03 AM EST
    the sh*t sells itself, the product is basically the same across the different manufacturers (a few bells and whistle selling points aside)...it's all about price, customer service, taking underserved blame, and those aforementioned ball tickets and kickbacks.

    Parent
    OT, my little league teammate Dan Quinn (none / 0) (#104)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 12:40:23 PM EST
    must have read your Jets comments, he took the head coach position for the Falcons.

    Parent
    Smart man! (none / 0) (#109)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 01:17:07 PM EST
    Glad there was a job left for him, and probably the best opening for an immediate chance to win.  

    Parent
    On the big ticket tech side (none / 0) (#177)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 10:18:56 PM EST
    both hunters and farmers are used.

    The hunter will not tolerate gathering by supporting and adding value and the farmer is totally lost if s/he is told to go get the approval/first order.

    Parent

    You inside guys...:) (none / 0) (#107)
    by Slado on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    There is nothing better for a salesman then to have a great inside guy as an assistant or as a colleague.   As you state many customers don't want their workplace invaded by a sales person and would much rather know that a reliable knowledgeable and motivated person is simply a phone call, or email away to achieving what they need for their business.  I've had several conversations with great customers where he basically told me I don't want to see you I just want you to be there when I need you.

    The best salesman are able to recognize which kind of customer they have. The one that wants to shoot the breeze for two hours and then make the deal or the one that wants to cut to the chase and move onto the next one.

    My larger point though is even if you are inside or outside the same communication skills are required and I really do feel like the next generation is lacking in this department.   The same skills that enable you to develop a good face to face relationship allow you to develop a phone or email relationship.   However email is limited in its power. It's too easy for people to convey or miss emotion via email and a simple phone call will usually fix a problem in five minutes I can take a chain of 50 emails to solve.

    "Always Be Closing"

    Parent

    To be sure... (none / 0) (#111)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 01:37:03 PM EST
    there is a time and place for all forms of communication.  To rely solely on new school or old school is foolish.

    It's minor bone of contention right now between myself and one of our outside guys.  He wants to do everything on the damn phone like it's 1965 and it drives me nuts Slado.  And he wonders why his deals go haywire more than others...it's because of the damn telephone game!  Let me type it up in an email and there is no confusion...especially with "hear what I wanna hear" types.

    And to be fair, there are probably some instances where I should call more instead of emailing...my problem is I'm a big people person socially, but professionally not so much.  I've got my favorite colleagues and customers who I enjoy talking to of course , but the list of arseholes I'd rather not have to hear speak is a longer list.  I am not cut out for what you do "outside".    

    And don't get me started on the customers who never even got hip to a fax machine, never mind email, and want to call in 25 line item orders over the phone.  It's archaic, and begging for mistakes to happen.

    Parent

    Now call back and I'll switch it (none / 0) (#186)
    by Slado on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 03:40:25 AM EST
    To the fax line.

    Salesperson waits patiently.  Faxes again.  Doesn't go through.

    Call Back.  "Hello?"

    "I thought we were faxing?"

    "Oh yeah, try it again".

    Uggggghhh

    As for your sales guy without knowing your business I got no problem with favoring the phone but you should document everything via email or the phone in tax guy :)

    Parent

    Interesting comment (none / 0) (#112)
    by ZtoA on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 01:43:11 PM EST
    My sister works in the investment business in the investment team of a company that manages over 3B in assets. She is the 'face' of the team, doing the media appearances as well as the investing. She is sent all over N America to meet with clients and potential institutions. She travels with the salesman, so she presents and answers questions and he closes the deals. They seem to work very well together. Her only complaint is that he always likes to arrive in a city before 8am for a 3pm meeting, so she has to get up at 2-3am to catch the plane. As a mini team within the investment team they have to do both - face to face, and e-communication.

    Parent
    My rule of thumb was (none / 0) (#178)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 10:23:58 PM EST
    if a meeting is important enough for two people to fly into a city then both members of the team should arrive the night before.

    Air travel is not reliable enough for a same day arrival.

    Parent

    Has worked so far (none / 0) (#180)
    by ZtoA on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 11:29:02 PM EST
    They go for 5 days at a time. 5 meetings, several media contacts/interviews. Monday-Friday. 4-5 cities. Each has a family and Sunday is a special family day.

    Parent
    I usually always 'do' dinner with my sister (none / 0) (#181)
    by ZtoA on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 11:32:59 PM EST
    and family Sunday nights. We start at 5-5:30 since she has to turn in at 8 or 9. Works for me too, since some nice TV shows are on a 9, and I don't have to get up till 7-8.

    Parent
    My bro-in-law backing Neil Young last night... (5.00 / 4) (#87)
    by Dadler on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:55:28 AM EST
    ...on THE TONIGHT SHOW. Playing bari sax behind Neil with The Roots. Tre phucking cool. Happy lumpday, y'all. Peace. (link)

    Very cool (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 11:23:59 AM EST
    Neil has been my favorite since I was 12. I like that version better than either version on the album (there are acoustic and orchestral versions of the songs).

    Parent
    YES!!! (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 06:02:09 PM EST
    The Surgeon General Is Finally Coming Around on Pot

    Despite the legalization of medical marijuana in 30 states, the federal government still lists cannabis under Schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act, which means that it has "no currently accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse." But today, the nation's new top doctor appeared to challenge that designation.

    "We have some preliminary data showing that for some medical conditions and symptoms that marijuana can be helpful," Surgeon General Vivek Murthy told CBS This Morning. "So I think we have to use that data to drive policymaking, and I'm very interested to see where that data takes us."

    Here's the full interview (Murthy's comments on medical marijuana start at 3:48):
    I have been predicting (none / 0) (#151)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 06:03:26 PM EST
    Obama will change the scheduling before leaving office.

    Parent
    What's the frequency Brian... (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by desertswine on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 08:56:55 PM EST
    Brian Williams caught in flagrante.
    O'Keeffe said the incident has bothered him since he and others first saw the original report after returning to Kuwait.

    "Over the years it faded," he said, "and then to see it last week it was -- I can't believe he is still telling this false narrative."

    I feel terrible about this "mistake." said Williams

    Oddest story I've read in awhile (none / 0) (#173)
    by Jack203 on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:45:04 PM EST
    It seems hard to misremember whether you were actually on a helicopter under fire.

    Something about Brian Williams never sat right with me.  This story isn't helping his case.

    Parent

    Radio shack going out of business (none / 0) (#1)
    by toggle on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:09:59 PM EST
    Word on the street is that half their locations will become Sprint stores, and the rest will be closed. The Radio Shack brand will be gone completely.

    Not that it's that big of a change, as the quality of the employees and the selection of the components had declined so much that Radio Shack stores were basically useless. The old motto was often parodied: "You've got questions, we've got cell phones."

    Radio Shack was the last place I know of (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:05:30 PM EST
    where you could purchase individual resistors, capacitors, coils and other components of various electronic systems....although I'm sure there's a place on the web.

    But you're right. The quality of there radios, TV's, etc was near bottom.

    Parent

    You Haven't Been to One Lately (none / 0) (#38)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 04:23:22 PM EST
    I went in a couple of months ago looking for a 3.5mm jack with soldering points.  Nothing, they didn't have a headphone jack that could be soldered.

    But they did have 50 kinds of adapters and cords for 3.5mm.

    I don't believe they have any individual electronic parts.  I remember the rows they used to have and I didn't see anything that looked like it could have contained them, but I didn't ask because I was shocked when they told me they didn't carry the part I needed.

    Fortunately we have a place in town that does carry the parts but it probably cost me $10 in gas to get a $3 part.

    There are a lot of places that carry parts online, and the good thing about parts is they are cheap to mail and you get the part you need, not a 'make it work' because it's all RS had.

    Parent

    Web (none / 0) (#41)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 04:38:04 PM EST
    monoprice.com

    My techie friends swear by it.

    Parent

    I Use DigiKey (none / 0) (#42)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 04:47:01 PM EST
    I don't do much with parts, but I make a lot of wires with specialized connectors, and that is the only place I could find that carries even he most obscure connectors.

    Parent
    Mouser... (none / 0) (#59)
    by unitron on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 08:47:19 PM EST
    ...is another good parts source.

    Parent
    Digikey and Mouser both used to be (none / 0) (#124)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:42:57 PM EST
    scrawny little catalogs.  Now they're both huge, if you bother with the paper versions.

    Parent
    The one here had a nice selection as late as last (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 08:44:36 PM EST
    summer of resistors, capacitors, etc. So I would guess they just let the inventory slowly dwindle.

    The net is great except it's sometimes hard to get a good grasp of the actual size.

    In most cases it's cheaper to throw away and buy new. Kinda sad in a way.

    But no need to complain. Just as Walmart wiped out our local hardware store the big box stores and the net have zapped RS.

    Parent

    They moved a lot of their parts and... (none / 0) (#58)
    by unitron on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 08:46:21 PM EST
    ...components to drawers.

    About the time they moved anyone who knew anything about electronics off of the payroll.

    Parent

    During the whole deflategate debate (none / 0) (#6)
    by CST on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:24:03 PM EST
    someone said something about Karma.  If weather is Karma - she is a nasty lady indeed.

    After being hit with over 2 feet (close to 3 in places) of snow last week, we got another 18 inches yesterday, another 6-12 on the horizon for wed night, and another big one on the way sunday night into monday (big usually means 1-2 feet).

    And it's pretty cold in between, so it's not like anything is melting.  One snow storm is fun.  4 snow storms in 2 weeks is just crazy.  There is nowhere left to put it all, and the MBTA is failing miserably leaving people trapped on a train or waiting outside for hours because the city won't shut it down again ($$).

    Patriots parade planning is fairly controversial at this point with people pissed about the city diverting resources when the streets are a mess.

    If it's karma, she's punishing the (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Anne on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 02:37:55 PM EST
    wrong people, don't you think?

    We had a winter like that some years ago - it was one big snow after another, with sub-zero temps which made it impossible to get rid of.  I remember there was this enormous - like 20 foot - pile of it at the kids' bus stop that lasted until sometime in May.  It started at Thanksgiving, and I remember that the kids didn't go back to school after the Christmas break for almost a week.  Schools in our zone were closed so often that the only way to make up for it was to extend the day both in the morning and in the afternoon.

    It was hard arranging for kid care, too - my husband and I would trade off, I'd bring work home, or I'd take them to work with me, or find friends for them to spend the day with.

    As someone who just wants one - yes, I know the danger of "be careful what you wish for!" - I am losing hope based on the pattern that seems to have developed where we just get brushed by the lame "wintry mix" while the heavy snow heads for New England...

    February is traditionally a big month for snow here, so we'll see.  In the meantime, I'll hope the pattern changes for you all so at least you can dig out and get back to some semblance of normal!

    Parent

    Oh, yes (none / 0) (#18)
    by Zorba on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:04:36 PM EST
    I remember that year well.  Our district as well extended the school day on both ends to make up for the "lost school time."
    Which meant that my kids, way out here in the country, who were already catching the bus at 7:00 AM in the morning to get to school on time, had to catch the freaking bus at 6:15 AM instead.  Which meant that we had to wake up by 5:15 or 5:30 AM so they could be ready on time.
    Stupidest decision ever.  They came home later, they had their homework to do, and their sleep clocks never got adjusted in that short a time period, so they were going to school as zombies, and I doubt that they heard any d@mned thing the teachers said in the first two or three periods at school.
    A total waste.

    Parent
    Here they keep kids in school (none / 0) (#28)
    by CST on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:39:09 PM EST
    until the end of June.  They used to have a few holidays that could be cancelled - like Bunker Hill Day - but they got rid of most of those holidays a few years ago.

    It's a hot mess right now though.  This is the most snow we've ever had in a 7 day period and they did not shut down the T or tell people to stay home for the snowstorm yesterday.  Instead people got stuck on a train for 2 hours - 3 hour commutes were common - half the trains were out of service (and still are) - the roads are a mess - and some lady got killed pulling out of her driveway when she got hit with a snow plow.

    And they are honestly going to have the parade tomorrow.  I don't even know what to say to that - but people are pretty pissed.

    Parent

    Oy! (none / 0) (#32)
    by Zorba on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 03:52:21 PM EST
    Forget the stupid parade.  The resources that are going to go towards having this parade should instead be going towards making sure that the roads are clear and the T is working properly so that, you know, "regular" people can get on with their lives.
    Not to mention, even more importantly, first responders, which I will bet have had many problems responding to emergencies.

    Parent
    These are the kinds of things that (none / 0) (#44)
    by Anne on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 05:10:32 PM EST
    get elected officials voted out of office.

    Any comments from the Patriots organization?  Seems like they could maybe say or do something that would take the pressure off to have the parade this week.  Anything from just coming out and saying, "hey, we know you want to celebrate with us, and we sure want to show our appreciation, but right now, it's more important for the city to get back up and running," to deploying members of the team and the staff to help shovel people out.

    It's only going to further anger people if services go to cleaning up the parade route while the rest of the city and the surrounding areas are still struggling to dig out - or - if people who really wanted to be there can't because they either can't get into the city, or, if they can, there's nowhere to park and no safe place to stand along the parade route.

    Parent

    It's supposed to snow here today (none / 0) (#78)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 08:48:53 AM EST
    for only the second time this year.  The first time it snowed about 2or3 inches and it was 60 the next day.  There have been several very cold days but no real weather to speak of.

    Feel bad for you guys.  Been getting regular updates from friends in the area.  love this.

    Parent

    The Los Angeles Times is polling its readers ... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 05:48:38 PM EST
    ... regarding who is "The Great American Novelist." Yet of the 17 individual writers one gets to choose from in this poll, all but two of them are -- drum roll, please -- white male. What a surprise, eh?

    Haven't the L.A. Times pollsters ever heard of Louisa May Alcott, Edith Warton, Margaret Mitchell, Alice Walker, Nathaniel Hawthorne, James Baldwin, Kurt Vonnegut and Gore Vidal?

    Personally, my choice for the quintessential "Great American Novelist" would be a tie between Jacqueline Susann and Harold Robbins. While that sounds unapologetically perverse, I'd offer that there's a good reason why their works regularly outsold the so-called "classics."

    And that's because for all our pretentions otherwise, we are and have been primarily a nation of pop culture junkies, and we just loves us some racy and trashy storytelling. And in that respect, Susann's "Valley of the Dolls" still stands as one of the all-time bestselling American novels with over 30 million copies in print, while Robbins' books have collectively sold over 750 million copies.

    Simply put, nobody did it better or made it quicker. Those astronomical sales numbers staked both Susann and Robbins as powerhouse authors in the publishing world in their heyday, even as literary critics sneered at and denounced their work.

    What do I consider to be "The Great American Novel"? Hands down, it's John Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath." Written contemporaneously to its times, when the country was struggling in the grips of the Great Depression and at a low point, Steinbeck shows Americans at both their best and their worst. Rather than end his book on a triumphant note, the author instead leaves us with the thought that whatever the challenges which may await us, we can find a way to persevere.

    What are your choices? The polls are open.

    I wonder if e books are counted (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 09:11:16 PM EST
    and I would have thought John D MacDonald would have made the top 10.

    Parent
    I think the Times pollsters tended to ... (none / 0) (#66)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 10:10:34 PM EST
    ... ignore authors of contemporary popular (or "pulp") fiction. I think that's sometimes a mistake, because while writers like Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) were popular in their day, they weren't necessarily appreciated by the literary academics of their times. Their work has since reached the pantheon of "classic literature" because it's endured and withstood the test of time.

    As far as endurance and longevity are concerned, the primary problem with many works of popular fiction is that so much of them can become terribly dated with the subsequent passage of time. They might retain some usefulness as a window to an earlier era, but from a storytelling perspective, their tales become obsolete.

    One case in point would be the work of Robert Ruark, an American novelist who was one of my mother's favorite authors when she was a young adult. While his work was enormously popular in the 1950s, much of it centered on the white expatriate experience in colonial Africa, a subject which apparently enthralled him to no end.

    But when most of Africa transitioned to independence and black majority rule in the '60s, Americans were generally no longer interested in literature celebrating that continent's former European colonial masters, so novels like Ruark's "Uhuru" and "Something of Value" quickly became anachronistic. While he continued writing up until his 1965 death in London, he never again attained the pinnacle of success he had enjoyed a decade earlier.

    So really, who's to say that work of contemporary writers like John McDonald won't be similarly appreciated by future generations of readers, even to the point where they are considered classics in their own right? After all, "Valley of the Dolls" just enjoyed its umpteenth printing not all that long ago, so someone's still reading it.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    IMO (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 10:12:47 PM EST
    the greatest american novelist is William Burroughs.  But that's me.

    Parent
    That's a good choice. (none / 0) (#69)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 10:23:26 PM EST
    Haven't really read all that much of his work, but what I did read, I liked.

    Parent
    I like and still read King (none / 0) (#71)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 10:30:53 PM EST
    but I agree his early stuff is much better.  With the, I think, very notable exception of the Dark Tower series which is hands down the best fantasy story I have ever read.  Course he started it in the 70s.

    Parent
    Lol; some scenes from Naked Lunch (none / 0) (#127)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:45:41 PM EST
    are burned into memory.  Burned.

    Parent
    If you read Burroughs (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 05:00:33 PM EST
    its burned into your mind.  And sole.  Not an overstatement to say at 17 it changed my life.

    Parent
    I was referring to the book, BTW. (none / 0) (#193)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 10:12:38 AM EST
    I read it about the same time.  16-17.  It was sitting on a shelf in my parent's library.

    Parent
    Ha (none / 0) (#194)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 10:26:59 AM EST
    i like your parents.  And I'm a bit jealous.  Needless to say not where I found it.  I had heard of the banning so figured it was worth finding.
    The changing my life part was probably exactly what the sensors were trying to prevent.  

    Parent
    CENSORS (none / 0) (#195)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 10:27:53 AM EST
    that is.

    Parent
    Please (none / 0) (#115)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 02:43:10 PM EST
    if we're going to conflate marketability with quality then Madonna and Katy Perry are better singers than Sarah Vaughn and Maria Callas.

    And George W Bush was the greatest leader and statesman late-20th century America had to offer the world.

    And Terminator and Die Hard VI could be works of cinematic genius.

    It's-good-if-it-sells..The money is always right (a million law firms can't be wrong..)  

    Parent

    The criteria provided by the L.A. Times ... (none / 0) (#135)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 04:16:18 PM EST
    ... makes no assessment of critical standards of an author's work product. And if we go strictly off their listed preferences alone, then it's painfully obvious that they hold white male novelists in greater esteem than they do authors who are female or persons of color.

    Therefore, regarding the applicability of the term "quality" to literature and the arts, I'd argue that it's almost entirely subjective and often purely in the eyes of the beholder.

    I won't deny that opera has likely seen few true divas of the caliber of Maria Callas. But I'd also point out that a very sizable majority of Americans have probably never even heard of her, much less ever heard her sing. And were you to play one of her recordings alongside one by Madonna, I'd lay better than even odds that most people would prefer Madonna. While that hardly means that Callas therefore doesn't matter when we talk about great singers, it does indicate that for most people, she's not what my daughters would call "all that," either.

    So, when we talk about the "Great American Novelist," while I'd agree that Jacqueline Susann was no Edith Wharton, I'd also note that sales of the entire Wharton catalogue combined twice over would probably not equal the 30+ million copies of "Valley of the Dolls" which have been sold to date. In fact, I became familiar with Wharton only because "The Age of Innocence" was on the required reading list of my American Lit class at UW.

    Therefore, I would ask whose work actually best represents Americans as they are -- the author whose primary subject matter was concerned with the manners, trials and tribulations of the country's wealthier citizens, or the author whose characters worked hard and sometimes partied harder, maybe drank a little too much or popped too many pills, had sex out of wedlock without apology if not necessarily regret, and were generally just trying to find themselves in a society in rapid flux?

    And I would only compare Ms. Susann to the great Mark Twain, to the extent that much of the contemporary criticism aimed at both authors by their supposed "peers" had a lot more to do with self-perceived vulgarity of the author's chosen subject matter, rather than with the writer's actual talent as a storyteller.

    That's because both Twain and Susann generally wrote about everyday people whose social status, lives and struggles didn't really matter much to many of those who were leveling such criticism. In that regard, both authors were effectively holding up a mirror to contemporary society, and that society's self-anointed guardians of morals and taste didn't like what they saw in the reflection.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Your argument will outlive you (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 04:28:49 PM EST
    apparently:

    KIRK: Excuse me! ...Excuse me! Would you mind stopping that noise?
    (a punk turns up his ghetto blaster sound)

    KIRK: Excuse me! Would you mind stopping that d*mn noise?
    (Spock gives the punk a nerve pinch, stopping the noise and gains a round of applause from the bus)

    SPOCK: Admiral, may I ask you a question?

    KIRK: Spock, don't call me Admiral. ...You used to call me Jim. Don't you remember? Jim. ...What's your question?

    SPOCK: Your use of language has altered since our arrival. It is currently laced with, ...shall I say, ...more colourful metaphors. 'Double dumb a** on you' ...and so forth.

    KIRK: You mean profanity. That's simply the way they talk here. Nobody pays any attention to you if you don't swear every other word. You'll find it in all the literature of the period.

    SPOCK: For example?

    KIRK: Oh, the collective works of Jacqueline Susann. The novels of Harold Robbins.
    SPOCK: Ah! ...'The giants'

    Star Trek IV:The Voyage Home

    Parent

    Henry Miller used to make (none / 0) (#142)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 05:03:19 PM EST
    a distinction between vulgarity and obscenity in literature.

    The vulgarity in Susann and Robbins just means itself; the obscenity in writers like Miller and Celine and Burroughs exists in a much wider context meant to point to something beyond itself.

    Parent

    I would offer that in Miller's case, ... (none / 0) (#145)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 05:20:05 PM EST
    ... such a distinction was entirely self-serving. His works were banned in the united States until 1961. And in that regard, he paved the way for authors like Jacqueline Susann.

    Parent
    Burroughs (none / 0) (#148)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 05:36:41 PM EST
    was also famously banned.

    Parent
    Yep. I find all that fascinating. (none / 0) (#153)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 06:19:26 PM EST
    It was that sort of thinking that led network censors to require that the characters Lucy and Ricky Ricardo of "I Love Lucy" had to sleep separately in twin beds, each wearing a garish pair of pajamas which would embarrass a 10-year-old. When star Lucille Ball became pregnant, they further wanted the show to go on hiatus until she gave birth, rather than show her in an expectant state.

    What a bunch of friggin' prudes we had running things back then, always trying to call the moral shots for everyone else. For all my complaints about the present state of the universe, there isn't a day that goes by where I'm not grateful to not have had that sort of nonsense imposed upon us, as did our parents and grandparents.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    LOL! "Ah -- the giants." (none / 0) (#154)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 06:24:17 PM EST
    That's why I always liked the original "Star Trek" cast.

    Parent
    Jackie Sussan (none / 0) (#139)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 04:45:07 PM EST
    as I recall also wrote primarily about the trials and tribulations of the privileged class: movie stars..Hollywood producers and their mistresses..

    The difference being that Susann appealed more directly to the 20th century public's voyeuristic fascination with celebrity scandal..prurient details..skeleton's in the closet. What Lucianne Goldberg called "dish". Hollywood Babylon stuff..

    Not exactly a world that most of us have any direct familiarity with.

    Parent

    If you read contemporary (none / 0) (#140)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 04:58:28 PM EST
    criticisms of Mark Twain you could almost substitute the names here.  To be clear I am not a Jackie fan or have I ever read her work.  Just pointing out that predicting want future generations will venerate is sort of a fools errand.

    Parent
    Right (none / 0) (#143)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 05:07:27 PM EST
    I never thought I'd live to see a pr-manufactured phenomenon like Reagan compared to Jefferson and Lincoln by thousands, if not millions of people..

    Parent
    Beyond the Valley of the Dolls (none / 0) (#162)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 08:52:03 PM EST
    was my favorite Jacqueline Susann movie.  She didn't write that?  Roger Ebert and Russ Meyer did?  Never mind.

    Does anyone name their kid Jacqueline anymore?


    Parent

    Susann wrote about the nouveau-riche, ... (none / 0) (#152)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 06:07:15 PM EST
    ... and the people who aspired to an elevated social status, even if it wasn't in their best long-term interests to do so, whereas Wharton wrote mostly about east coast families of old money.

    Further, not ever character in Susann's books necessarily makes it, particularly the ones who forget where they came from. The three aspiring main characters in "Valley of the Dolls" all hail from decidedly middle class backgrounds and upbringings, and despite their initial successes, each of them went on to rather painful and even tragic failures. Only one eventually makes it, and she only accomplishes that by going back home to small-town New England.

    Author Nancy Bachrach explains why "Valley of the Dolls" is America's guilty pleasure:

    "When it was first published in the 1960s, Time magazine branded it 'the dirty book of the month.' Susann was accused of 'typing on a cash register,' and Truman Capote called her 'a truck driver in drag.' She threw a drink at Johnny Carson, a punch at a critic and a chair at a wrestler, before jumping into the ring. All of it sold books.

    "The critic John Simon was apoplectic about her success. On television, he said he'd rather 'see dogs fornicate' than read her story. He cited every literary misdemeanor in the book, and when the audience came to Susann's defense, Simon reminded them that he had a Ph.D. in comparative literature. And when that failed to impress them, he blew a gasket and had to be bleeped. This was book-gate.

    "While it's true that the novel is woefully short on style, character development, subtlety, complexity and phraseology -- oh, does it have plot. And it doesn't hurt that the characters in the book are thinly veiled versions of Marilyn Monroe, Grace Kelly and Judy Garland.

    "Their goals are fame, fortune and men -- not necessarily in that order -- and they're in a rush, since Susann says a woman's looks fade irreversibly in her 20s, and the ones who marry for love age fastest. Meanwhile, the book's heroines fall from such great heights that they could have invented gravity. On their way down, they start popping pills, aka the 'dolls' of the title.

    "Susann thought the 1960s would be remembered for three things: The Beatles, Andy Warhol and her. She may turn out to be right."

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The novel that would probably win (none / 0) (#117)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:08:13 PM EST
    a poll of American literature professors, Moby Dick, was savaged by the critics in it's day..

    Jackie Susann Melville wasn't..

    The elevation of the sensational, prurient aspects of Pop Culture has to do with the twentieth century being the century of marketing, pr firms, and focus groups..

    Parent

    I won't deny that Jacqueline Susann ... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 05:15:03 PM EST
    ... had considerable assistance in marketing her book, particularly from the great publicity agent Irving Mansfield -- who also so happened to be her husband.

    "Valley of the Dolls" had been rejected by several publishers because of its racy subject matter. But Mansfield convinced a small publishing house, Bernard Geis Associates, to give the book its initial printing. The book immediately proved to be a smash hit with readers, and sales were no doubt further increased by Mansfield's subsequent deft marketing of both his wife and her book throughout the English-speaking world.

    But all the publicity in the world isn't going to help a book that's poorly written and a turn off to readers. Susann was a gifted storyteller whose work resonated with her audience. And her readers, in turn, tended to dismiss the mean-spirited barbs from literary critics such as Gore Vidal, who once said rather pithily of Susann, "She doesn't write, she types."

    As the very first female author to achieve truly widespread renown and popularity in her own lifetime, Jacqueline Susann is important in the history of literature. Her trailblazing success proved to publishers that there was indeed a real market for the work of female authors, which opened the doors for writers such as Colleen McCullough (who just died the other day), Toni Morrison, Alice Walker and Margaret Atwood.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I agree and based on the writers (none / 0) (#189)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 05, 2015 at 08:47:46 AM EST
    specifying "unique American experience" the selection of Bradbury, who wrote mostly fantasy and scifi published in such pulps as Weird Tales, Planet Stories and Galaxy, brought a grin to my face.

    Of course looking at the current craze for tattoos he may have been on to something in his "The Illustrated Man."

    MacDonald, and his Travis McGee series, is one of my favs. Absolutely nothing but page turners yet they remain fresh and his message of righting the wrongs done to those who can't be helped by the "authorities" appeals to my better side.

    And I must be one of the 10 people in America who hasn't read "Dolls." Don't know why but just never did.


    Parent

    10 best selling (none / 0) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 06:02:26 PM EST
    American Authors

    I was surprised.  I thought King would be higher on the list.

    Parent

    I would have, too. (none / 0) (#48)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 06:14:33 PM EST
    But Harold Robbins is ranked No. 1, which underscores my point about the impact of pop culture in America.

    Had she not died of recurrent breast cancer in 1974, Jacqueline Susann would likely also be on this list. She wrote only four novels, each one of them phenomenal bestsellers, before she passed away. But her success probably paved the way for other pop novelists to be taken seriously by publishers, especially female writers like Jackie Collins.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Really surprised (none / 0) (#64)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 09:50:08 PM EST
    to see Dean Koontz ahead of King.  Tried a couple of Koontz books.  Never finished one.  

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    I never got into either Koontz or King. (none / 0) (#68)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 10:21:03 PM EST
    Stephen King is in fact a decent writer and storyteller, but the pressures of replicating his earlier successes became such that by the 1980s he was churning out a prodigious amount of pure schlock under his name and unfortunately, he soon became his own best parody.

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    I was really happy (none / 0) (#53)
    by sj on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 06:41:04 PM EST
    to see Dr. Seuss on the list at all -- much less at number 3.

    Parent
    Mark Twain (none / 0) (#72)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 11:29:50 PM EST
    ...Or Samuel Clemens if you prefer.

    Everything else came after he made it possible.  The life he lived, riverboat pilot, newspaper editor, western adventurer, the first standup comic, was like no other.

    Also: The Literary Offenses of Fenimore Cooper.

    Parent

    Cormac McCarthy (none / 0) (#76)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 12:44:25 AM EST
    I was glad to see him on the list.  He has quite a following.....but his re-descent into alcoholism may prevent him from finishing his novel set in New Orleans, which was according to reports supposed to be his final grand masterpiece....

    It is unfortunate but it appears that his sobriety did not survive his public acceptance and notoriety.....

    Parent

    Main Street by Sinclare Lewis (none / 0) (#77)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 06:49:51 AM EST
    as it encapsulates the American small town, down to the name of the fictitious town, Gopher Prairie.

    His other works, Elmer Gantry, the portrait of an American Evengelical preacher, and of course, Babbit, which captures the "just regular folks" businessman and made him flesh in an almost Biblical way, from a handful of cliches the way Adam was created from dust in the Book of Genesis.

    Parent

    My vote would be (none / 0) (#100)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 11:52:02 AM EST
    "The Great Santini" by Pat Conroy. But that's because I am a military brat and the book really meant something to me.

    Parent
    mmm.... Pat Conroy (none / 0) (#113)
    by sj on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 01:44:00 PM EST
    I'm not really one for prose with lots of imagery. Ordinarily, that is. But the opening to "The Prince of Tides" struck me as hauntingly beautiful.

    Parent
    Alas (none / 0) (#155)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 07:54:06 PM EST
    I am also the offspring of southerners. Deep South. Mississippi. "The Prince of Tides" was almost painful to read. The similarities to my own family were eerie. Southerners love their secrets. Conroy and I are simpatico. Both military brats, both with roots in the south.

    Parent
    Hmmm, by my count there are 7 women on that (none / 0) (#125)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:44:18 PM EST
    list, and at least two of them are black women (Toni Morrison and Zora Neal Thurston).

    My vote goes to Toni Morrison - absolutely beautiful, complex writing. 'Song of Solomon' is a great place to start if you have not read her work.

    Parent

    So there are. (none / 0) (#146)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 05:27:29 PM EST
    And if you notice, five of those women are listed below "Other." The L.A. Times has obviously updated that list, so maybe others complained besides me. At the time I first linked it, the list had only 17 names, of which 15 were white male.

    Parent
    Oh, OK! I didn't think it was like you (none / 0) (#171)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:44:07 PM EST
    to miss something like that. Glad they updated it. Edith Wharton would be my next choice...but, to stick up for white males, where was Henry James? I had to look it up, he became a British citizen a year before his death, but I consider his novels to be American stories.

    Parent
    With regard to Toni Morrison, ... (none / 0) (#147)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 05:30:31 PM EST
    ... I think that's an inspired choice, too. The nice thing about this sort of discussion is that there are no right or wrong answers here, and we each get to see what turns other people on, literature-wise.

    Parent
    Exactly right. No wrong answers at all (none / 0) (#174)
    by ruffian on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:46:08 PM EST
    I am getting some good recommendations here - I need to go read some Harold Robbins!

    Parent
    Somber anniversary. (none / 0) (#51)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 06:32:00 PM EST
    56 years ago tonight, the music died in a snowy cornfield outside Clear Lake, Iowa.

    Wow (none / 0) (#52)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 06:40:48 PM EST
    Holly had set up the gruelling schedule of concerts - covering 24 cities in three weeks - to make money after the break-up of his band, The Crickets, last year.

    That means some days with more than one city.  Thats pretty grueling.

    Parent

    And, "Everyday" ... (none / 0) (#70)
    by christinep on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 10:28:33 PM EST
    I always wondered what he would have gone on to accomplish but for ....   "Peggy Sue" still flits around for me from time to time.  My Peggy Sue.

    Parent
    This is good (none / 0) (#54)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 07:41:46 PM EST
    Tax Law Quirk Means Pot May Pay off for Coloradans Literally -

    The TABOR amendment (none / 0) (#88)
    by sj on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 10:12:01 AM EST
    is a scourge on the state, really.

    Parent
    No opinion about that (none / 0) (#92)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 10:54:08 AM EST
    i just think it can only be good that there is enough money coming in that it's a problem.   It the kind of story we advocates like to see.

    Parent
    That's the thing (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by sj on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 11:03:35 AM EST
    It's not that there is "enough money coming in", it's the ratchet effect of TABOR.

    The ratchet effect refers to how TABOR calculates spending based on prior years, including when spending has been slashed during a recession. That keeps government budgets low for years after a recession.

    The State is only allowed to keep so much of revenue...


    Parent

    I'm sure you are right (none / 0) (#96)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 11:10:31 AM EST
    but given the aversion to nuance of media outlets how many do you think will understand that.
    All they will hear is taxpayers are getting a refund because of legalized pit.

    Parent
    Um (none / 0) (#97)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 11:11:02 AM EST
    legalized POT

    Parent
    Wasn't sure how I felt about this (none / 0) (#82)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 09:30:01 AM EST
    MPs say yes to three-person babies

    But I woke up early enough today to catch Banjo Boy and his sidekick Barnacle Boy bemoaning the ultimate arrival of designer Frankenstein babies.

    So I think it's a great idea.

    well, I'm past the age (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 03:47:49 PM EST
    where a five person party could lead to a three person baby, so...

    Parent
    Look out Boston! (none / 0) (#99)
    by jbindc on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 11:52:01 AM EST
    Predictions of snowfall up to another 25 inches over the next 10 days.

    Yikes!

    Aware (none / 0) (#110)
    by CST on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 01:24:04 PM EST
    It's been cold - almost none of the snow has melted.  But trust me, we know more is coming.

    It's such a clusterf*ck here right now though.  And too many politicians getting on the soapbox talking about "unacceptable" problems on the MBTA that they caused by underfunding maintenance for years.  Although maybe some of the suburban politicians will realize after this disaster that their constituents do in fact need public transit in the city and it benefits everyone.  Because the T is breaking down left and right and traffic is a complete nightmare all over the greater Boston area.  People got stranded on a train for hours, half the trains went out of service, people are waiting in the freezing cold at stations for hours in places where a train is usually there every 10 min.  Even if you aren't the one using public transit - the fact that it's breaking down is definitely impacting your commute for the worse.  They closed a highway exit into the city yesterday because the gridlock was so bad, and just about every major road is missing a lane of traffic to snow piles, so this is when we need transit to function the most and it failed spectacularly because it's old and broken.

    I don't even want to think about 2 more feet.

    Parent

    Compassionate Conservatism (none / 0) (#159)
    by Politalkix on Wed Feb 04, 2015 at 08:30:29 PM EST
    The sequel

    Tuesday Open Thread | 200 comments (200 topical)